Might have to try their suggestion; driving position
03-02-2016, 04:07 AM
#31
I've been holding my tongue on this post. Oh well.
There is a lot of history to be considered in what you may or may not have been taught. I feel a need to cover a bit of this for those that may have been taught bad habits with the best of intentions.
Back in the day we had pitman steering on US cars, no power steering, no air bags, a lot of turns lock to lock, and some nasty roads. How does this look for hand location?
First, and out of order, without an air bag there was no concern about crossing your arm over the wheel. There was no worry about a bag breaking your arm, or the bag thrusting your arm into your face. So it was fine moving our hands across the wheel. It was also fine having steel dash boards, no seat belts, and no crumple zones!
Second, with all of those turns lock to lock we needed to take our hands off the wheel to regrip. US cars with pitman steering boxes and big steering wheels meant we had a long ways to move. Hands at 10 and 2 allowed hand over hand steering to get all of that motion without spilling the beer we had propped between our thighs.
Meanwhile, across the pond, rack and pinion steering tended toward tighter steering with smaller steering wheels and friends in Europe were taught 8 and 4 with shuffle steering. BTW, people taught that steering method were better prepared for incorporation of air bags ... their arms weren't crossing over the air bag.
And as another technique, evasive driving was taught with hands at 5 and 7 to allow faster slide control. This made for some crazy turning speeds and single handed actions. But I digress.
With all that steering wheel rotation, if you hit the shoulder on a rough road, or even a good sized pothole, the tires could take over and spin the steering wheel faster than your eyes could see. I was taught to drive with my thumbs outside the wheel and I can say this has saved me more than once, especially when driving off road. And even at slow speed ... 1958 ****** M38A1 before I installed a power steering pitman box with elongated arm ... 6 mph ... negotiating major dips on a 30 degree side slope ... left front wheel 3 feet off the ground ... subtle slide on the front right and the left tire hit the edge of the hole it had been hovering over ... steering wheel spun fast enough that had my thumbs been inside I would have lost them. And the trek out would have been very very tough! Not so critical on modern cars. But I still keep my thumbs clear out of habit.
I was also taught to keep a very light touch on the wheel. No tight grip. Give the steering a little room to wobble if it needs and steer if you must by applying pressure to generate motion if you need to correct. (On older cars there was a worry of breaking linkages if you held too tight. Had I had a tight grip on the ****** that day I suspect I would have been stuck there for a long time.)
On long desert treks (dirt bikes) a loose grip saved my forearms and, against logic, actually helped maintain lines. This brings up another point ... when riding up a long nasty uphill (or any section for that matter) you need to see / plan your line up the entire hill. Taking that to the street, don't just steer through the curve you're approaching ... set your line through all of the visible turns you are approaching, and if you know the road, include those you can't see. Adjust the line per road surface, dirt, debris, whatever you can see. If driving slowly, you may want to tweak your line from optimum to test you and your car. Telephone poles, trees, hills, etc can help you assess the turns you can't see yet. Look forward through the valleys and hills for clues. Dust ahead? Prepare for a tractor or a truck that just pulled onto the road. This may also imply dirt and stones in your near future.
Back to history ... Most of us were taught how to drive by our parents. This began with our watching them, or taking the wheel while we sat in their laps. We picked up how they drove. Their mechanical history of driving techniques got handed down to us. If you doubt this, go to a country that didn't have many cars 30 years ago and watch how people drive (or don't). South Korea 30 years ago was scary. Cars were multiplying like rabbits and being "piloted" with the best of intentions by people who had never seen the inside of a car before they bought their pride and joy. During the same time in China, with every visit, I saw new sets of rules being tested. In both cases, studying the drivers and reactions, it was obvious they were making it up as they went and adapting to what worked and what didn't.
So where are we now? Cars have changed. Steering is tight. Turns lock to lock are few. Generally road surfaces won't rip the wheel from your hands.
With air bags, theoretically you don't want to cross the wheel. Without the bag, hand over hand was OK. Now, not so much. But does that apply to a 911? To all cars? Reading this post you would think not.
Yeah, we cross the wheel if we hold 9 and 3 without a regrip and we convince ourselves that it is OK, but there is a difference between performance driving and cruising around town.
My Lexus and the F250 get shuffle steering. The dynamics of those vehicles won't let me get the job done without releasing and regripping the wheel.
The 997 gets 9 and 3 with a quick shuffle on just one south bound tight right turn below Stinson Beach (I can't contort that far). In spirited driving I want access to the paddles, I want consistent control of the input. I want to know where center is without needing to find it. If my arm is crossed over the bag and I absolutely fully lose control, I'm bringing things back straight. I won't be crossed over the bag. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
And back to seating position. I confess that I took to laying back some years ago. Four broken backs leave me less comfortable than I used to be. Sitting upright is tough. But the pride created by driving my 997 combined with this post woke me up. I moved my positions back to where I was originally taught. My back killed me after 10 miles. I almost gave up. But I thought it over. I got my legs bent a bit more, added some lumbar support, and it is good. And as a side benefit, my wrists don't hurt as much. My only complaint is that the seat belt clamp my son in law gave me for xmas to hold me in the seat now cuts into my side. That's a little thing.
And BTW, the clamp really helps in the corners.
Will this start a thread talking about unsafe equipment for street driving? Given the 9 and 3 wheel position as an absolute, and arms across the bag, maybe that should happen. But as Colin Chapman said, a safe car is one that can avoid the accident to begin with.
There is a lot of history to be considered in what you may or may not have been taught. I feel a need to cover a bit of this for those that may have been taught bad habits with the best of intentions.
Back in the day we had pitman steering on US cars, no power steering, no air bags, a lot of turns lock to lock, and some nasty roads. How does this look for hand location?
First, and out of order, without an air bag there was no concern about crossing your arm over the wheel. There was no worry about a bag breaking your arm, or the bag thrusting your arm into your face. So it was fine moving our hands across the wheel. It was also fine having steel dash boards, no seat belts, and no crumple zones!
Second, with all of those turns lock to lock we needed to take our hands off the wheel to regrip. US cars with pitman steering boxes and big steering wheels meant we had a long ways to move. Hands at 10 and 2 allowed hand over hand steering to get all of that motion without spilling the beer we had propped between our thighs.
Meanwhile, across the pond, rack and pinion steering tended toward tighter steering with smaller steering wheels and friends in Europe were taught 8 and 4 with shuffle steering. BTW, people taught that steering method were better prepared for incorporation of air bags ... their arms weren't crossing over the air bag.
And as another technique, evasive driving was taught with hands at 5 and 7 to allow faster slide control. This made for some crazy turning speeds and single handed actions. But I digress.
With all that steering wheel rotation, if you hit the shoulder on a rough road, or even a good sized pothole, the tires could take over and spin the steering wheel faster than your eyes could see. I was taught to drive with my thumbs outside the wheel and I can say this has saved me more than once, especially when driving off road. And even at slow speed ... 1958 ****** M38A1 before I installed a power steering pitman box with elongated arm ... 6 mph ... negotiating major dips on a 30 degree side slope ... left front wheel 3 feet off the ground ... subtle slide on the front right and the left tire hit the edge of the hole it had been hovering over ... steering wheel spun fast enough that had my thumbs been inside I would have lost them. And the trek out would have been very very tough! Not so critical on modern cars. But I still keep my thumbs clear out of habit.
I was also taught to keep a very light touch on the wheel. No tight grip. Give the steering a little room to wobble if it needs and steer if you must by applying pressure to generate motion if you need to correct. (On older cars there was a worry of breaking linkages if you held too tight. Had I had a tight grip on the ****** that day I suspect I would have been stuck there for a long time.)
On long desert treks (dirt bikes) a loose grip saved my forearms and, against logic, actually helped maintain lines. This brings up another point ... when riding up a long nasty uphill (or any section for that matter) you need to see / plan your line up the entire hill. Taking that to the street, don't just steer through the curve you're approaching ... set your line through all of the visible turns you are approaching, and if you know the road, include those you can't see. Adjust the line per road surface, dirt, debris, whatever you can see. If driving slowly, you may want to tweak your line from optimum to test you and your car. Telephone poles, trees, hills, etc can help you assess the turns you can't see yet. Look forward through the valleys and hills for clues. Dust ahead? Prepare for a tractor or a truck that just pulled onto the road. This may also imply dirt and stones in your near future.
Back to history ... Most of us were taught how to drive by our parents. This began with our watching them, or taking the wheel while we sat in their laps. We picked up how they drove. Their mechanical history of driving techniques got handed down to us. If you doubt this, go to a country that didn't have many cars 30 years ago and watch how people drive (or don't). South Korea 30 years ago was scary. Cars were multiplying like rabbits and being "piloted" with the best of intentions by people who had never seen the inside of a car before they bought their pride and joy. During the same time in China, with every visit, I saw new sets of rules being tested. In both cases, studying the drivers and reactions, it was obvious they were making it up as they went and adapting to what worked and what didn't.
So where are we now? Cars have changed. Steering is tight. Turns lock to lock are few. Generally road surfaces won't rip the wheel from your hands.
With air bags, theoretically you don't want to cross the wheel. Without the bag, hand over hand was OK. Now, not so much. But does that apply to a 911? To all cars? Reading this post you would think not.
Yeah, we cross the wheel if we hold 9 and 3 without a regrip and we convince ourselves that it is OK, but there is a difference between performance driving and cruising around town.
My Lexus and the F250 get shuffle steering. The dynamics of those vehicles won't let me get the job done without releasing and regripping the wheel.
The 997 gets 9 and 3 with a quick shuffle on just one south bound tight right turn below Stinson Beach (I can't contort that far). In spirited driving I want access to the paddles, I want consistent control of the input. I want to know where center is without needing to find it. If my arm is crossed over the bag and I absolutely fully lose control, I'm bringing things back straight. I won't be crossed over the bag. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
And back to seating position. I confess that I took to laying back some years ago. Four broken backs leave me less comfortable than I used to be. Sitting upright is tough. But the pride created by driving my 997 combined with this post woke me up. I moved my positions back to where I was originally taught. My back killed me after 10 miles. I almost gave up. But I thought it over. I got my legs bent a bit more, added some lumbar support, and it is good. And as a side benefit, my wrists don't hurt as much. My only complaint is that the seat belt clamp my son in law gave me for xmas to hold me in the seat now cuts into my side. That's a little thing.
And BTW, the clamp really helps in the corners.
Will this start a thread talking about unsafe equipment for street driving? Given the 9 and 3 wheel position as an absolute, and arms across the bag, maybe that should happen. But as Colin Chapman said, a safe car is one that can avoid the accident to begin with.
03-02-2016, 12:10 PM
#32
The video mentions to lower your seat as much as possible to help lower your center of gravity. Is there a minimum line of sight I should have when looking forward? Obviously one should see over the dash board. Should I be just high enough to see the top of my hood or to the front of my hood/front bumper?
03-02-2016, 02:29 PM
#33
Nordschleife Master
03-02-2016, 07:46 PM
#34
Tony ... how? I need pillows on each side of my hips for as wide as these seats are. In turns I slide everywhere. I brace with my knees, but that is, ahem, a very wide stance! The clamp lets me cinch the belt and lock my hips into position. But if you've got a method, let me be first in line to try it
03-02-2016, 10:37 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
03-02-2016, 10:52 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
This is exactly the positioning method I learned and have used as a PCA instructor from at least 15 years ago. And being based on human anatomy and ergonomics, I don't see them changing any time soon either. But the thing is, even though these things have been known since, like, forever, the funny thing is nobody knows them! Every single student I ever had sat too far back.
Sorry, gonna repeat that: Every single student I ever had sat too far back.
Even the guy (model) demonstrating it in the video is too far back! Before people start screaming it can't be wrong its a Porsche video, listen to the dialog, it is 100% correct: "the seat back should be vertical enough that with both wrists perched on top of the steering wheel the top of the back is fully supported by the bolsters of the seat." Instead they show us a model with his palms barely touching the wheel with both shoulders rolled forward. The instructor got it right- then someone in video production botched it.
Watch any of the videos of Patrick Long (or any of the other factory drivers) they are all sitting very upright, elbows bent, shoulders comfortably into the seat.
I can't emphasize this enough. Anyone who tries this method, I can just about guarantee you will immediately feel "can't be right… too close" and want to scoot back at least an inch or two. Well, don't. If it feels too close, move it an inch closer still. Odds are you are so used to sitting too far back that when you feel impossibly crowded in way too close you have finally got it just right.
Sorry, gonna repeat that: Every single student I ever had sat too far back.
Even the guy (model) demonstrating it in the video is too far back! Before people start screaming it can't be wrong its a Porsche video, listen to the dialog, it is 100% correct: "the seat back should be vertical enough that with both wrists perched on top of the steering wheel the top of the back is fully supported by the bolsters of the seat." Instead they show us a model with his palms barely touching the wheel with both shoulders rolled forward. The instructor got it right- then someone in video production botched it.
Watch any of the videos of Patrick Long (or any of the other factory drivers) they are all sitting very upright, elbows bent, shoulders comfortably into the seat.
I can't emphasize this enough. Anyone who tries this method, I can just about guarantee you will immediately feel "can't be right… too close" and want to scoot back at least an inch or two. Well, don't. If it feels too close, move it an inch closer still. Odds are you are so used to sitting too far back that when you feel impossibly crowded in way too close you have finally got it just right.
03-02-2016, 11:22 PM
#37
03-02-2016, 11:24 PM
#38
This is SO TRUE! Funny enough how incorrectly EVERYONE in racing movies sit! Like all of those non-sense Fast and Furious movies... like the guy is totally LEANING BACK, hardly can reach the steering wheel and are involved in street races or whatever, cornering into 90 degree turns at 100 MPH, yeah right!
But people see this stuff so many times, over and over, they think its for real. They believe it. Which is why its so important to get out on a track with an instructor. For, you know, deprogramming.
03-03-2016, 12:27 AM
#39
Nordschleife Master
Tony ... how? I need pillows on each side of my hips for as wide as these seats are. In turns I slide everywhere. I brace with my knees, but that is, ahem, a very wide stance! The clamp lets me cinch the belt and lock my hips into position. But if you've got a method, let me be first in line to try it
2 - Move the seat backwards 2 inches
3 - Squeeze in chest and belly and HOLD. Grab the diagonal belt near the top anchor point and strongly push it down with a sudden jerky motion. Open your belt grabbing hand being careful not pulling the belt forward. The belt should be locked, if not repeat until it locks, then relax.
4 - Move seat forward (2”) to standard driving position.
Once the seatbelt is locked it will stay locked until the upper section of the seatbelt is gently pulled forward.
Tight belt locking keeps the driver in place, especially in sport or bucket seats.
Last edited by ADias; 03-03-2016 at 08:33 PM.
03-04-2016, 10:48 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
The NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) a few years ago recommended hands on the wheel at 9 & 3 as the highest safe position - staying clear of airbags which deploy at 150+mph and can cause severe injury (as referenced earlier in this thread).
Some say 8 & 4 reduces the ability to control the car. Not sure if it's been proven but certainly arms in front of the airbag is a bad position to be in if they deploy.
I agree with all posts stating every student I've ever had sits too far back from the wheel (gangsta), and many rest their hand on the shifter far too long in advance of the shift and especially if there are two shifts in a row. Hands should be on the wheel except during the shift and no longer than needed.
I'm also a state certified driving instructor, and much of what we teach overlaps all segments of driving (track, car control and street). Look where you want to go. Correct seat position. Correct hand position. Correct foot position and use of dead pedal. It all counts and it's all important, and often done wrong.
Mirror adjustment is another thing often done wrong, and those who say you should not be able to see your car in the mirror from the "normal" driving position are correct. If you see your car you've given up WAY too much blind spot (as stated above).
There can still be blind spot - even with correct mirror adjustment, and that's why we teach to always do a quick blind spot check before changing lanes. It's gotta be a quick sideways glance - we all know taking eyes off the road is dangerous - but so is merging into a car you didn't see - especially if you're in the right lane of a 3 lane highway and someone could be merging to the center from the far left lane just as you're merging from the far right lane (I've been behind this scenario more times that I care to remember). Even with proper mirror adjustment you might not see that car unless you turn your head and look.
If you decide to try putting your mirrors farther out (if you've had them adjusted so you see your car) - try it a little at a time. Eek them out a bit, then drive for a few days and get adjusted, then eek them out a bit more. Keep making changes every few days and work up to it gradually. Otherwise it can be very disorienting.
Also - if you are backing into a parking space (or backing up for whatever reason) mirrors probably need to come in so you CAN see you car in relation to whatever you are backing past. Mirror setting for reverse should NOT be the same as highway driving. The only time a "compromise" setting might be advised is for those with manually adjusting right side view mirrors who would literally have to be in the passenger seat with window down, or walk around the vehicle to adjust the mirror. (and yes - I've taught corporate clients at the track in their big company truck that was ordered with manual side mirrors and windows that ROLL down with a crank handle)!!
Great advice here. Bravo RL!
Some say 8 & 4 reduces the ability to control the car. Not sure if it's been proven but certainly arms in front of the airbag is a bad position to be in if they deploy.
I agree with all posts stating every student I've ever had sits too far back from the wheel (gangsta), and many rest their hand on the shifter far too long in advance of the shift and especially if there are two shifts in a row. Hands should be on the wheel except during the shift and no longer than needed.
I'm also a state certified driving instructor, and much of what we teach overlaps all segments of driving (track, car control and street). Look where you want to go. Correct seat position. Correct hand position. Correct foot position and use of dead pedal. It all counts and it's all important, and often done wrong.
Mirror adjustment is another thing often done wrong, and those who say you should not be able to see your car in the mirror from the "normal" driving position are correct. If you see your car you've given up WAY too much blind spot (as stated above).
There can still be blind spot - even with correct mirror adjustment, and that's why we teach to always do a quick blind spot check before changing lanes. It's gotta be a quick sideways glance - we all know taking eyes off the road is dangerous - but so is merging into a car you didn't see - especially if you're in the right lane of a 3 lane highway and someone could be merging to the center from the far left lane just as you're merging from the far right lane (I've been behind this scenario more times that I care to remember). Even with proper mirror adjustment you might not see that car unless you turn your head and look.
If you decide to try putting your mirrors farther out (if you've had them adjusted so you see your car) - try it a little at a time. Eek them out a bit, then drive for a few days and get adjusted, then eek them out a bit more. Keep making changes every few days and work up to it gradually. Otherwise it can be very disorienting.
Also - if you are backing into a parking space (or backing up for whatever reason) mirrors probably need to come in so you CAN see you car in relation to whatever you are backing past. Mirror setting for reverse should NOT be the same as highway driving. The only time a "compromise" setting might be advised is for those with manually adjusting right side view mirrors who would literally have to be in the passenger seat with window down, or walk around the vehicle to adjust the mirror. (and yes - I've taught corporate clients at the track in their big company truck that was ordered with manual side mirrors and windows that ROLL down with a crank handle)!!
Great advice here. Bravo RL!