Porsche is losing me...
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Porsche is losing me...
Something has been on my mind lately while my 997 is in hibernation. With all the new turbocharged engines in the 991 and Boxster/Cayman, my head is spinning! I am used to changes in Porsche happening at a much slower pace.
Now that Porsche is under VW, I feel that Porsche is no longer in charge of itself as a company. Rather, they are under the direction of VW and I don't like that. I realize that VW group and Porsche have always been one big family but Porsche was separate.
Ever since I started to get into Porsches in the 70's and 80's, turbocharging was reserved for the ultimate Porsches both racing and street. I drooled over the turbo 930 and still do today. Now, even the base 991's are turbocharged and a turbocharged Porsche really isn't special the way it used to be. Oh well, change is life. And I like my 997 even more for it.
Now that Porsche is under VW, I feel that Porsche is no longer in charge of itself as a company. Rather, they are under the direction of VW and I don't like that. I realize that VW group and Porsche have always been one big family but Porsche was separate.
Ever since I started to get into Porsches in the 70's and 80's, turbocharging was reserved for the ultimate Porsches both racing and street. I drooled over the turbo 930 and still do today. Now, even the base 991's are turbocharged and a turbocharged Porsche really isn't special the way it used to be. Oh well, change is life. And I like my 997 even more for it.
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From: Atlanta
I too noticed the pace of change at all the car companies has sped up. I suspect something foundational in the design-to-build time/cost equation has drastically changed. ROI is also compressed due to what I suspect is lower development costs.
For Porsche, just look at how many really new engines are coming out and how short their lifecycles are. I read for Ford, the "new" Thunderbird, the retro one, was designed and build stupidly fast and only had model life expectancy of just a few years. Further, the car was a specialty model with a purposly limited market (I wouldn't even fit in it!). This is crazy stuff given the cost and process structures of old.
So why not squeeze out as much as they can from a model or platform? My Ford friend said the number one complaint of any dealership is wanting fresh product. New sells. So I guess they do it because... they can now.
Anyone in manufacturing out there who can shed some light on this change?
Peace
Bruce in Philly
For Porsche, just look at how many really new engines are coming out and how short their lifecycles are. I read for Ford, the "new" Thunderbird, the retro one, was designed and build stupidly fast and only had model life expectancy of just a few years. Further, the car was a specialty model with a purposly limited market (I wouldn't even fit in it!). This is crazy stuff given the cost and process structures of old.
So why not squeeze out as much as they can from a model or platform? My Ford friend said the number one complaint of any dealership is wanting fresh product. New sells. So I guess they do it because... they can now.
Anyone in manufacturing out there who can shed some light on this change?
Peace
Bruce in Philly
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Joined: Nov 2011
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From: San Diego
I don't understand the disappointed sentiments generated by the change. I haven't driven the new 718 or 991.2's but when it is done right, a turbocharged engine can be thrilling. I'd wager that many drivers would be pressed to differentiate the 991.1 vs. 991.2 as turbo vs. NA if they were not told. Of course, as enthusiasts we care about this stuff, but perhaps a little too much. It's just like the controversy over electric vs. hydraulic steering. I understand that there is a difference in feel, but it's negligible and when I can place the car just as accurately with either system, how much does it matter anyway?
Lastly, just because the 991.2 Carrera is turbocharged, doesn't mean that the 991.2 Turbo won't be special. The Turbo and Turbo S variants are just bonkers fast and that will always be the allure of the Turbo badge. Even when the next gen 'Turbo' is a hybrid. You know it's coming...
Lastly, just because the 991.2 Carrera is turbocharged, doesn't mean that the 991.2 Turbo won't be special. The Turbo and Turbo S variants are just bonkers fast and that will always be the allure of the Turbo badge. Even when the next gen 'Turbo' is a hybrid. You know it's coming...
Racer
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 290
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From: South Korea
Something has been on my mind lately while my 997 is in hibernation. With all the new turbocharged engines in the 991 and Boxster/Cayman, my head is spinning! I am used to changes in Porsche happening at a much slower pace.
Now that Porsche is under VW, I feel that Porsche is no longer in charge of itself as a company. Rather, they are under the direction of VW and I don't like that. I realize that VW group and Porsche have always been one big family but Porsche was separate.
Ever since I started to get into Porsches in the 70's and 80's, turbocharging was reserved for the ultimate Porsches both racing and street. I drooled over the turbo 930 and still do today. Now, even the base 991's are turbocharged and a turbocharged Porsche really isn't special the way it used to be. Oh well, change is life. And I like my 997 even more for it.
Now that Porsche is under VW, I feel that Porsche is no longer in charge of itself as a company. Rather, they are under the direction of VW and I don't like that. I realize that VW group and Porsche have always been one big family but Porsche was separate.
Ever since I started to get into Porsches in the 70's and 80's, turbocharging was reserved for the ultimate Porsches both racing and street. I drooled over the turbo 930 and still do today. Now, even the base 991's are turbocharged and a turbocharged Porsche really isn't special the way it used to be. Oh well, change is life. And I like my 997 even more for it.
Remember the days the Boxster concept was announced - what a nightmare - an entry Porsche - , the 996, what? a water-cooled engine, not possible as a Porsche is air cooled! What a Cayenne, why we need that as the only Porsche is a 911...
Think it is al about evolution and Porsche is no else than others that they want to sell cars and make profit. Also, the emission criteria are getting more strict every year where technical solutions introduced are not always what we want to see.
For the new 991 turbo charged cars; drive it and see if it is fit for you. If not, there are other sport cars brands to pick - but they suffer from the same problem.
I am a Porschist since 1993 and tried 2 times Ferrari but quickly came back to Porsche.
What I don't like in current Porsches is that they seem to be more GT oriented so Jaguar or BMW drivers might but a Porsche as next car where the Porsche purists who are in for the real Porsche sports car are forced to opt for a GT3 to get their thrill. Nothing wrong with that as the Porsche gamma is wide so everybody could find a car that fits.
I have driven the 991.2 and for me it drives very good. However it does not make me decide to get rid of my "old" 997.1
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From: ..............
Turbocharging is for emissions and fuel economy... these are exogenous factors in the carmakers' landscape driven by government regulations. Their hands are being forced.
Improving business systems, software, practices in carmakers and their supplier networks allow faster model cycles and changes in tooling and manufacture, these developments in and of their own are progress in a business sense...and nothing to lament.
The capitalist system we live in spurs all publicly held business enterprises to seek continuing revenue and profit growth to generate ever more wealth for their owners. This leads specialty companies to seek larger markets and more volumes. In the process, high volume products need to take into account needs of more 'average, mass market' customers. Take BMW... why are their cars so comfy and soft now? Well, they are more interested in selling your wife, daughter, sister and father in law their everyday-cars and SUV's as they are in selling you your knife-edge sharp enthusiast-mobile... in fact their success now totally depends on this...
None of this is surprising. These are the forces driving the changes in the new models being introduced by the sports car makers we have come to love and watch so carefully, the changes we sports car geeks now so often bemoan.
Porsche at least holds its performance car ethos in higher regard and tries not to dilute that special nature too much as they build more comfortable, green and fuel efficient machines that are being demanded of them. While evolving as a company, they are trying very hard not to abandon the harder core enthusiast... and for that I am grateful...
Improving business systems, software, practices in carmakers and their supplier networks allow faster model cycles and changes in tooling and manufacture, these developments in and of their own are progress in a business sense...and nothing to lament.
The capitalist system we live in spurs all publicly held business enterprises to seek continuing revenue and profit growth to generate ever more wealth for their owners. This leads specialty companies to seek larger markets and more volumes. In the process, high volume products need to take into account needs of more 'average, mass market' customers. Take BMW... why are their cars so comfy and soft now? Well, they are more interested in selling your wife, daughter, sister and father in law their everyday-cars and SUV's as they are in selling you your knife-edge sharp enthusiast-mobile... in fact their success now totally depends on this...
None of this is surprising. These are the forces driving the changes in the new models being introduced by the sports car makers we have come to love and watch so carefully, the changes we sports car geeks now so often bemoan.
Porsche at least holds its performance car ethos in higher regard and tries not to dilute that special nature too much as they build more comfortable, green and fuel efficient machines that are being demanded of them. While evolving as a company, they are trying very hard not to abandon the harder core enthusiast... and for that I am grateful...
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Joined: Mar 2014
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From: Montreal
I don't even go to their website anymore! You can always stay pre-991 for the rest of your life....that's my plan 
On the bright side, VW will likely have to divest of Porsche with this whole Diesel scandal.
On the bright side, VW will likely have to divest of Porsche with this whole Diesel scandal.
Race Director
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,104
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From: Ny
Turbocharging is for emissions and fuel economy... these are exogenous factors in the carmakers' landscape driven by government regulations. Their hands are being forced. Improving business systems, software, practices in carmakers and their supplier networks allow faster model cycles and changes in tooling and manufacture, these developments in and of their own are progress in a business sense...and nothing to lament. The capitalist system we live in spurs all publicly held business enterprises to seek continuing revenue and profit growth to generate ever more wealth for their owners. This leads specialty companies to seek larger markets and more volumes. In the process, high volume products need to take into account needs of more 'average, mass market' customers. Take BMW... why are their cars so comfy and soft now? Well, they are more interested in selling your wife, daughter, sister and father in law their everyday-cars and SUV's as they are in selling you your knife-edge sharp enthusiast-mobile... in fact their success now totally depends on this... None of this is surprising. These are the forces driving the changes in the new models being introduced by the sports car makers we have come to love and watch so carefully, the changes we sports car geeks now so often bemoan. Porsche at least holds its performance car ethos in higher regard and tries not to dilute that special nature too much as they build more comfortable, green and fuel efficient machines that are being demanded of them. While evolving as a company, they are trying very hard not to abandon the harder core enthusiast... and for that I am grateful...
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Nordschleife Master
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,386
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From: Southwest
Not only turbocharging, but larger cars, longer wheelbase, more road isolation, more electronic controls, less privacy and so on.
Nothing wrong in keeping what you like and skipping new production...
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Racer
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 290
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From: South Korea
Already available, the self-driving car. Good after some heavy drinking, the car brings you home but other than that - no thanks!
Race Car
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,190
Likes: 41
From: Bogota / Navarre Beach
Porsche is not losing me - i'll be driving and buying 997 editions until I die. As for new cars well......yah I think we have much better options available than a 991.2 (hint: none of them are German).
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,550
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From: Greater Philadelphia Area, USA
Company builds cars for enthusiasts.
Enthusiasts are 5% of the market.
Company grows by selling new variants to the other 95%, too.
Enthusiasts cling to the car that is purest to them
Company wants to sell even more of the original model that defined them
Company modernizes that model.
Company has to use turbos and other enthusiast-offensive tech to meet regs
Company has to expand model line-up beyond sports cars
Company needs parent company to have capital
Parent company mingles
BLAH
BLAH
BLAH
How consumers should react: SCREW BRAND LOYALTY. What many of us love just wears other badges:
I drove an Alfa 4C. I need that in my life.
From what other purists have raved about, some of us could use a Lotus in our lives.
997.2 is as far as I can go mentally, but when I don't need the back seat anymore, I assure you, I will be in hot pursuit of an Alfa or Lotus.
I don't really care what Porsche does now.
Boring people can live with 911's and feel almost no compromise in their life now. Take those same people and they'd not like an Alfa or Lotus if they had to drive it and enjoy it (most might want them on looks, but not on experience). That's the litmus test. I want a car that most people won't want after 60 days. Modern Porsches aren't like that.
.
.
Enthusiasts are 5% of the market.
Company grows by selling new variants to the other 95%, too.
Enthusiasts cling to the car that is purest to them
Company wants to sell even more of the original model that defined them
Company modernizes that model.
Company has to use turbos and other enthusiast-offensive tech to meet regs
Company has to expand model line-up beyond sports cars
Company needs parent company to have capital
Parent company mingles
BLAH
BLAH
BLAH
How consumers should react: SCREW BRAND LOYALTY. What many of us love just wears other badges:
I drove an Alfa 4C. I need that in my life.
From what other purists have raved about, some of us could use a Lotus in our lives.
997.2 is as far as I can go mentally, but when I don't need the back seat anymore, I assure you, I will be in hot pursuit of an Alfa or Lotus.
I don't really care what Porsche does now.
Boring people can live with 911's and feel almost no compromise in their life now. Take those same people and they'd not like an Alfa or Lotus if they had to drive it and enjoy it (most might want them on looks, but not on experience). That's the litmus test. I want a car that most people won't want after 60 days. Modern Porsches aren't like that.
.
.
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 479
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Just to give you an example,a BMW 3 series is no better than a Toyota Corolla. As a matter of fact,the Corolla is more reliable and cheaper to maintain. One costs 45K and the other 15K. Why? Because BMW,Porsche,Mercedes etc built a name for themselves. They will continue to sell higher priced cars for a while,but the consumers are getting smart. If their reliability and fun factor continues to go down,that name will be meaningless in 10 years. Perhaps the top brand will be Hyundai by then.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,596
Likes: 71
Not interested in anything Porsche makes these days either. I do want them to be around for a long time, though (because I like the fact that they still produce parts for cars long out of production).
I'm hoping we'll see more Alfa 4C type of cars from other manufacturers though because I don't see Porsche making them.
I'm hoping we'll see more Alfa 4C type of cars from other manufacturers though because I don't see Porsche making them.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,596
Likes: 71
So true. I just bought a 2015 3 series and it gets me to my destination but it is truly a pedestrian (boring) car. Also just bought a 2016 Mazda CX-5 and it is actually a great fun car (SUV) to drive. I am jealous that my wife has it. The seats in it beat BMW's by a mile. Buyer's remorse! Should have shopped around.
Our daughter has a late model Mazda 3. What a fun little car!! I get a big kick out of driving such a nimble little car. Truly cheap thrills.
Racer
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 327
Likes: 49
From: Northern NJ
Just to give you an example,a BMW 3 series is no better than a Toyota Corolla. As a matter of fact,the Corolla is more reliable and cheaper to maintain. One costs 45K and the other 15K. Why? Because BMW,Porsche,Mercedes etc built a name for themselves. They will continue to sell higher priced cars for a while,but the consumers are getting smart. If their reliability and fun factor continues to go down,that name will be meaningless in 10 years. Perhaps the top brand will be Hyundai by then.