UOA with DT40 and a question or two.
10-10-2015, 11:53 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Luke,
What oil do you run? Do you mix to try to obtain certain valuable properties?
Do you believe that an M97 should use a particular oil in an attempt to avoid the IMSB issue, or any other of the few known categories of 2005 M97 failures? If so, what is that oil?
Many thanks for your insight,
John
What oil do you run? Do you mix to try to obtain certain valuable properties?
Do you believe that an M97 should use a particular oil in an attempt to avoid the IMSB issue, or any other of the few known categories of 2005 M97 failures? If so, what is that oil?
Many thanks for your insight,
John
10-11-2015, 12:05 AM
#17
Luke,
What oil do you run? Do you mix to try to obtain certain valuable properties?
Do you believe that an M97 should use a particular oil in an attempt to avoid the IMSB issue, or any other of the few known categories of 2005 M97 failures? If so, what is that oil?
Many thanks for your insight,
John
What oil do you run? Do you mix to try to obtain certain valuable properties?
Do you believe that an M97 should use a particular oil in an attempt to avoid the IMSB issue, or any other of the few known categories of 2005 M97 failures? If so, what is that oil?
Many thanks for your insight,
John
PM or email me (both available for RL members). I'll be happy to explain. Tired of oil wars on RL.
Cheers,
Luke
10-11-2015, 12:24 AM
#18
Former Vendor
i
First off, Blackstone is the Wal Mart of UOA. Before I based anything off their analysis I'd do a second test at a different lab. Itis a good possibility that they have calibrated the equipment with a virgin sample of the older DT40, in which case the results will be skewed. Use Caterpiller, orr ALS/ Stavely for the best results. Based on how god the rest of the UOA looks, especiall Visq, I have a hard time believing 2.4 TBN and less than 1000 on Zn. I have never, not once, ever had a TBN less than 3 with DT40. That engine had 75 dyno pulls on it, too.
2.
Here's where the real gripes with this data begin. The values posted are either wrong, or were another result of cross pollination. I typically see a much lesser visq than this, even when we have Zn of 1250 or so. For the Zn to hurt so much, TBN to hurt so much, and Visq to be greater than it should be, something is fishy.
It could, but more than that, I believe we are simply looking at botched values. It doesn't make sense.
I have found them on the site before, but haven't looked in a while. I have never had an issue receiving these.
Forget about viscosity!! BR oils are break in oils, and they are conventional. They work exceptionally well for flushing due to their characteristics. That said, BR50 is a 50 grade, and BR40 is a 40 grade. I use BR 30 for a flush oil because I want it to be thing, and able to wash as much of the old stuff out when drained as possible. Its also being ran for only 100 miles, so visq has no impact.
3.
I'd pay zero attention to this value, even though it is a kick *** number. Why? Because its way too high. I took the time to look at over 200 UOA I have in a database, and we had no DT40 samples that
had the same traits of visq like this.
A solid 75% of the cars that come here for IMS Retrofit are NOT using DT40 when they arrive. We pull samples of their oil during our pre- eval process. 100% of those cars leave here with DT40, as we use nothing else, and refuse to.When we keep watching these cars after our process I see some trends of cross polination, but nothing like the sample in this thread. We have the sump off, and we do flushes.
5.
DT50. Its the same oil more or less, just a 50 grade. I developed it more for aircooled engines.
Its an oil thread, and they all suck as far as I am concerned. That said, look at the Moly in that sample chain, it starts out at 21 with one of the oils, then drops to a 1 with the DT40. This one value proves how insanely different the composition of the oils were, as the moly difference is coming fromthe virgin oil. The same goes with the Potassium. Again, we can't trust anything this UOA has given us, too many conflicting data points.
ke’s first fill with X-Cess was also a subject to “Crosspollination” with whatever he used prior to X-Cess. Yet Motul retained very solid mg KOH/g. His question is why DT dropped so significantly down to 2.4.
2.
Based on LN web site, DT40 KV’s are 76.81 (40C) and 13.03 (100C). Well, his 100C UOA KV is actually 14.65 which is 1.6 cSt MORE than the virgin fill. There are a few thickening mechanisms known, none a good thing. The difference exceeds calibration or human errors. Again, why did DT thickened over 3,550 miles?
all of the above could be contributed to “crosspollination” then what are the mechanisms of that and why other oils do not suffer in similar way?
e know that Castrol as an example have horrible data sheets, some of the worst in industry. However, Driven has none available, or I cannot find any. Again I don’t have a dog here, but that does not project favorably to me. I could run a VOA and get some of that info, but why?
We know that flat 6 Porsches do not drain well. In fact we’re dealing with about 1 – 1.5 L of old oil for every fresh fill. Why do I however have to flush the engine with oil, which is 30 weight? Why not just run DT40 for say 500 miles as a flush method?
3.
Looks like DT40 is holding viscosity well (given that we’re not dealing with oxidative thickening) however is DT40 still work in progress in terms of other oil properties?
had the same traits of visq like this.
Is DT40 miscible with other mineral and synthetic oils?
5.
In case I wanted to gradually increase viscosity of my engine lubricant, what is the next available viscosity (10W-50 or similar) compatible with DT40 that can be used? Let me explain: Say I wanted to bring my oil to upper limits of 5W-40 by adding 10%-20% (or potentially more) of 10W-50 to my fresh fill.
Is there a way to bring all collective knowledge of all bright folks at Driven, Lubrizol, LN and F6 and give us some decent answers to the above?
*None of it is meant as any form of attack and I hope it doesn’t sound that way. I would however appreciate answers that are appropriate for post secondary level of education.
Cheers,
Luke
*None of it is meant as any form of attack and I hope it doesn’t sound that way. I would however appreciate answers that are appropriate for post secondary level of education.
Cheers,
Luke
10-11-2015, 01:12 AM
#19
Hi Jake,
I'm reading your post above in disbelief.
You actually did not answer any my questions above with the exception of DT50. I also vaguely remember, perhaps from Pelican forum, that either you or Charles mentioned that DT40 and DT50 are not compatible with each other.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Again, I have no agenda to get the answers, what puzzles me is that nobody can intelligently answer my questions above.
We both know that Porsche (and Mobil) have in past and likely still do play games with oils. Getting to the bottom of that pile of S**T is what excites me the most. I'm on your side of the barricade.
Mike (the OP) has some valid questions. Please answer them. He deserves that. He sounds like a good and honest chap to me!
Cheers,
Luke
I'm reading your post above in disbelief.
You actually did not answer any my questions above with the exception of DT50. I also vaguely remember, perhaps from Pelican forum, that either you or Charles mentioned that DT40 and DT50 are not compatible with each other.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Again, I have no agenda to get the answers, what puzzles me is that nobody can intelligently answer my questions above.
We both know that Porsche (and Mobil) have in past and likely still do play games with oils. Getting to the bottom of that pile of S**T is what excites me the most. I'm on your side of the barricade.
Mike (the OP) has some valid questions. Please answer them. He deserves that. He sounds like a good and honest chap to me!
Cheers,
Luke
10-11-2015, 01:25 AM
#20
Former Vendor
I believe what we have her is a perception issue, I answered every question that you had, as directly as possible.
What Mike needs to do is gather another sample after a few hundred miles, and send it somewhere else for analysis, then compare those results.
I have NEVER stated that DT40 and DT50 are not compatible, I have said that they were developed for different applications, which they were. I have several personal cars that I run DT40 in the winter, and then DT50 in the summer, and have been doing so since 2009, when we kept all of this for ourselves. I challenge you to find where I made the statement that you mention.
Both DT40 and DT50 can be swapped back and forth with no issue, and the same goes for XP5, 7 &9. We have owners that swap between these for various street and track activities, and conditions. No worries at all, as the oils were designed for this, since DT oils are street oils, and XP series oils are race oils with short lives, and no storage protection.
Just because I have not given you the answer that you wanted, does not mean that I have not answered the questions. If you want more, write Lake Speed Jr. as he answers all the tech emails personally, and he is THE developer of all the products.
The one question I could have answered more clearly was about flushing with DT40. Yes, nothing stops someone from using DT oil as a flush, anything would help to remove cross pollination better than nothing. The BR is a better oil for this, and it's much cheaper, too, as it will be getting thrown away.
As long as I have drums of DT40 and the other products that we've worked with Gibbs to develop, I'm happy, and the rest of the world can pretty much do whatever they'd like.
What Mike needs to do is gather another sample after a few hundred miles, and send it somewhere else for analysis, then compare those results.
I have NEVER stated that DT40 and DT50 are not compatible, I have said that they were developed for different applications, which they were. I have several personal cars that I run DT40 in the winter, and then DT50 in the summer, and have been doing so since 2009, when we kept all of this for ourselves. I challenge you to find where I made the statement that you mention.
Both DT40 and DT50 can be swapped back and forth with no issue, and the same goes for XP5, 7 &9. We have owners that swap between these for various street and track activities, and conditions. No worries at all, as the oils were designed for this, since DT oils are street oils, and XP series oils are race oils with short lives, and no storage protection.
Just because I have not given you the answer that you wanted, does not mean that I have not answered the questions. If you want more, write Lake Speed Jr. as he answers all the tech emails personally, and he is THE developer of all the products.
The one question I could have answered more clearly was about flushing with DT40. Yes, nothing stops someone from using DT oil as a flush, anything would help to remove cross pollination better than nothing. The BR is a better oil for this, and it's much cheaper, too, as it will be getting thrown away.
As long as I have drums of DT40 and the other products that we've worked with Gibbs to develop, I'm happy, and the rest of the world can pretty much do whatever they'd like.
10-11-2015, 02:01 AM
#21
I don't have a pig in this race. As I mentioned before.
Thanks for your late night answers.
Luke
Makes you wonder: "What do eagles do when parrots are silent?"
-Luke
10-11-2015, 02:21 AM
#22
Former Vendor
No pig in the race for me, either.. It's not my oil, and it's not my car. One of these days I'll remember that it's none of my damn business, and I'll not be dumb enough to post.
10-11-2015, 02:34 AM
#23
Jake, brother.
Our backgrounds may be different, we however aren't that much different.
We both strive for perfection.
I did not serve in the Core. But, and that's a big full bodied, fat BUT (using top gear words) we both strive for perfection. In different ways.
We're going to get together one day and sort out the "discrepancies". As perceived in this thread.
In meanwhile, talk to you soon.
Cheers,
Luke
Our backgrounds may be different, we however aren't that much different.
We both strive for perfection.
I did not serve in the Core. But, and that's a big full bodied, fat BUT (using top gear words) we both strive for perfection. In different ways.
We're going to get together one day and sort out the "discrepancies". As perceived in this thread.
In meanwhile, talk to you soon.
Cheers,
Luke
10-11-2015, 02:36 AM
#24
Former Vendor
Jake, brother.
Our backgrounds may be different, we however aren't that much different.
We both strive for perfection.
I did not serve in the Core. But, and that's a big full bodied, fat BUT (using top gear words) we both strive for perfection. In different ways.
We're going to get together one day and sort out the "discrepancies". As perceived in this thread.
In meanwhile, talk to you soon.
Cheers,
Luke
Our backgrounds may be different, we however aren't that much different.
We both strive for perfection.
I did not serve in the Core. But, and that's a big full bodied, fat BUT (using top gear words) we both strive for perfection. In different ways.
We're going to get together one day and sort out the "discrepancies". As perceived in this thread.
In meanwhile, talk to you soon.
Cheers,
Luke
10-12-2015, 09:46 AM
#26
Former Vendor
From Lake:
Jake,
I have reviewed the UOA report on the DT40 sample from Blackstone labs. The first thing to note is the the wear metals are fantastic on both oils. Any reading that is 10 ppm or under in essentially nothing.
I agree with the analysts comment that the DT40 appears to have at least another 2,000 miles of useful life. I am not surprised with the TBN level considering this is the first fill of DT40 following Motul, which is an Ester based oil. Any time you switch between esters, it is normal to abnormal results. Let me explain. Because esters are very polar in nature and diverse in character, changing between esters causes changes in the tribofilm at the surface. This "replacement" of one Ester for the other on the surface typically involves acids (esters are a byproduct of reacting an acid with an alcohol). This is also the likely reason for the low ZDDP levels. The replacement of the surface tribofilm will consume more ZDDP in that process.
Again, overall, this analysis looks really good.
Thanks,
Lake Speed, Jr.
Certified Lubrication Specialist
Driven Racing Oil - Born From Joe Gibbs Racing, Driven To Win
13201 Reese Blvd, Suite 200
Huntersville, NC 28078
704-239-4401 cell
704-944-7538 fax
Jake,
I have reviewed the UOA report on the DT40 sample from Blackstone labs. The first thing to note is the the wear metals are fantastic on both oils. Any reading that is 10 ppm or under in essentially nothing.
I agree with the analysts comment that the DT40 appears to have at least another 2,000 miles of useful life. I am not surprised with the TBN level considering this is the first fill of DT40 following Motul, which is an Ester based oil. Any time you switch between esters, it is normal to abnormal results. Let me explain. Because esters are very polar in nature and diverse in character, changing between esters causes changes in the tribofilm at the surface. This "replacement" of one Ester for the other on the surface typically involves acids (esters are a byproduct of reacting an acid with an alcohol). This is also the likely reason for the low ZDDP levels. The replacement of the surface tribofilm will consume more ZDDP in that process.
Again, overall, this analysis looks really good.
Thanks,
Lake Speed, Jr.
Certified Lubrication Specialist
Driven Racing Oil - Born From Joe Gibbs Racing, Driven To Win
13201 Reese Blvd, Suite 200
Huntersville, NC 28078
704-239-4401 cell
704-944-7538 fax
10-13-2015, 08:07 AM
#28
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Jake, on the 100 mile flush with BR30, should those miles be done all at once or does it not matter; I.e. would a 50 mile distance to a destination and the 50 mile trip back a couple days later suffice? Any guidelines for driving while the BR30 is in there (red ceiling, etc)?
I'm getting ready to do the flush and then change to DT40 and want to do it properly using your guidelines.
Thanks.
I'm getting ready to do the flush and then change to DT40 and want to do it properly using your guidelines.
Thanks.
10-13-2015, 09:19 AM
#29
Former Vendor
Jake, on the 100 mile flush with BR30, should those miles be done all at once or does it not matter; I.e. would a 50 mile distance to a destination and the 50 mile trip back a couple days later suffice? Any guidelines for driving while the BR30 is in there (red ceiling, etc)?
I'm getting ready to do the flush and then change to DT40 and want to do it properly using your guidelines.
Thanks.
I'm getting ready to do the flush and then change to DT40 and want to do it properly using your guidelines.
Thanks.
10-13-2015, 09:44 AM
#30
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member