How long is this debate going to run on? This has about the same chance of reaching a consensus as the great "What oil should I use?" threads. If it is driver engagement you're looking for, why not go way back? To a time men real men drove beasts.

 

Great point. I think the racing sector is already wrestling with this, of course to a much lesser degree. There are street car versions of race cars with as much or even greater horsepower, and more sophisticated electronics. F1 racing has limited horsepower, and banned some electronics such as ABS and traction control. NASCAR just moved away from carburetors.

Technology is great, but as has been noted, where does it end? Google and others are working on self-driving cars. The image it creates is a line of cars following each other down the highway at the same speed. I thought those were called passenger trains.

I have driven PDKs and they are very impressive, but up till now I have preferred a manual for the complete or maybe the better term, is "traditional" driver experience. Yet I admit I wouldn't rule out a PDK or other DCT in the future.

 

I think some people may be missing the point? Driving as a means to an end, will be improved by all this technology. Driving as an end-experience in itself, however, can be diminished. That happens with technology. Again, I'm from the playstation generation (I think??) but sometimes analog is more enjoyable.

There are often tradeoffs that occur as tech progresses. Safety in cars is better, but the extra weight and nannies undoubtedly make them less entertaining / fun to drive. That doesn't mean I will necessarily give up airbags, ABS, etc ... but at some point the tradeoffs are no longer worth it for someone where the driving experience itself is the end-goal.

I have absolutely no doubt that a Ferrari F40 is more entertaining to drive than a Nissan GT-R. I also have absolutely no doubt that the GT-R will be faster around a circuit, in a straight line, upside down, and backwards... I would still take the F-40 in a heartbeat, as a money-no-object, fun car.

I could have bought a GT-R instead of the car I bought. It would be faster and more practical. But in terms of tradeoffs I was willing to make, I was okay with sacrificing some speed for something I would enjoy driving more. If I was okay with giving up some sure-footed capabilities, or if I was a more accomplished driver (and had a garage...) I might have opted for an older 911, for an even more connected driving experience -- but there would again be tradeoffs.

There is no turning back technology and progress, but it doesn't mean the outcome is necessarily better for all involved. It may be better for many or most... and many or most drivers care more about the function of the car, or the prestige, or the bragging rights, etc, than of the challenge of the drive, or the process itself.

Again, I think PDK is great. I am not knocking it, but it isn't fair to dismiss those that prefer manual transmissions as irrationally clinging to the past. To many, it is simply more fun and more engaging. It is clearly more challenging to master, while still being clearly technologically inferior.

I enjoy canoeing or kayaking as recreational sports more than an outboard motorboat. If I had to use one or the other as my "daily driver" I'd choose the outboard... If I was using my Porsche purely for its utility, and not using it more for the driving experience, then I'd certainly want PDK. A Porsche with PDK is still very enjoyable, and can also be visceral, but at the margin I prefer manual and that added interaction of the clutch pedal.

There are countless examples of where what used to be a primarily functional technology or form of transportation got supplanted by a superior tech. Sailboats anyone? For a minority of Porsche drivers, however, the drive itself is the end-goal, and I think the automation of the car hurts that.

I might be in the minority but if Porsche manufactured something like what Singer does, but at a 911 carrera price point, I'd be a buyer... technology utilized for the benefit of the driving experience itself...

 

PDK is not new and its core is analog. Porsche used PDK in the 80s in prototype racing to great results. The GT3 series has been using sequential transmissions for years, which are also used in the Cup car. Sequentials have a clutch which is only used to launch the car; all shifts are then clutch-less. PDK in the 997/991 etc. is a sequential transmission with an automated (D) mode. Forget D mode, stick it in M and it is a pure sequential transmission and it is purely analog - forks move gears and clutches. The digital component is in the D mode.

I reiterate. I am not against manuals. I drive one too. And I am disappointed a manual is not offered in the current GT3 - a shame really!

 

Sorry,this is not correct. When you pull paddles,you are requesting the computer to activate the shift motors,which move forks and engage gears.

 

That is semantics - pulling a paddle you close a switch to activate two solenoids to move two forks. That path is strictly analog.

 

Nope. The PCM activates what's called " shift motors " which change the gears for you. Do a search about shift motors in a double clutch transmission. Each tranny has 2 or more...

In a manual transmission you are mechanically engaging and disengaging the clutch and gears.

 

BTW,in a double clutch transmission the shifts are so fast because the next gear is already engaged before it happens.

Great technological and engineering achievement without a doubt!

 

I am referring to a sequential transmission with a pure analog path. Analog as there is no binary/digital logic making shifting decisions. The driver triggers a purely mechanical shift. Solenoids/motors are analog components, last I checked. The paddle switch triggers the PDK controller, granted, to activate a motor or a solenoid but the path/action is analog. And you can have the same mechanical sequential feel using the gear lever, a mechanical feel even if it operates a switch (fly-by-wire). You can even switch the lever direction to follow the me-too direction others use (push to downshift/pull to upshift) if you want.

 

I hope a few more days.

I feel a poem coming on...

 

Analog vs. Digital? This reminds me of LP's vs. CD's and Tube amps vs. Solid State. Needless to say I have a modern state-of-the-art Thorens turntable and a tube headphone amp in addition to my MN6 997.1!

 

Scott,

I sure hope your wife doesn't get on Rennlist as a "lurker" and see that ^ post!

 

Is it a cold day in hell or just a Rennlist winter thread?

 

He was the most entertaining member in history. Gone but not forgotten.

 

The grass is sometimes greener on the other side.