USMC_DS1

+1... would be great to hear from Jake and others re how to extend the life of these engines or more importantly how to minimize the potential issues.

FWIW, I've taken a SWAG at this over the years with the following maintenance procedures and/or mods in hope of making a difference. This is, of course, focused on our heat related issues here in the southern states.
- add 3rd Porsche radiator to cool the engine in our hot TX climate during the summer.
- ext FVD oil pan... holds ~9.5 ltrs plus has baffles to help with oil pick up and minimize oil frothing. Increases oil capacity and the fin like billeted design helps with cooling. 3rd rad and the FVD oil pan have in fact dropped the oil temp by 25-30*F.
- use of oil formula's like Motul Xcess which is Porsche approved. Now that I'm out of CPO warranty period Gibbs and/or Millers are oil considerations I'm reviewing.
- gradual engine warm up procedure before hammering it.
- frequent oil changes with a UOA... I prefer to change the oil every 3k miles then cut and inspect the filter medium and magnetic drain drain plug for any signs of potential issues. These types of precautionary inspections are typically not performed by p-dealers... one more reason to DIY.
- preemptive maintenance procedures such as the WP R&R every 40K-50K miles.
- flush the "lifetime" coolant every 4-5 yrs completely or at least do a partial every 2 yrs.
- swap plugs every 20K-25K miles and do a bore scope. If the bore liner are scored then I'd take it as an opportunity to have a shop "niki" line it.


Let us know what steps you've taken as well... and don't forget to enjoy the drive.

Flat6 Innovations

And I'd love to be able to freely share that. At the same time, I just can't. Matter of fact, since my last post I have received 7 complaints from members saying that I shouldn't be sharing these issues and "fear mongering". Its funny how people state that 996 values tanked along with the engine failures, when in fact the 996 depreciation is the same percentage wise as any other European sports car of the same era that didn't have failure issues. The economic downturn was the biggest contributor to that- not engine issues.

I have added an enthusiast level class to my training program, so in January 2015 I'll be able to share these things here in my own world.

Sharing info that completely counters what the factory has stated is a slippery slope and is best done behind closed doors. In my experience, it has to be.

KLS

I don't get it. I've learned a lot from Flat6 without a doubt and I do appreciate all the insight. However, how can one cite all the seemingly endless modes of failure of our engines, point out flaws in the manufacture of them, and yet not be able to offer opinions on how to prolong engine life? I'm sure people do complain (valid or not) when they hear over and over what time bombs they're driving, but who's going to complain about advice on how often to change the oil, what types are best and why, and other things that in his opinion offer some peace of mind?

Flat6 Innovations

It happens everyday.. Sometimes several times a day. If the information doesn't come from the manufacturer, it takes a special breed to appreciate it. That special breed is few and far between.

Its the main reason why I haven't published my book yet, and I may never publish it.

Philster

Flat6 really has posted a ton already. He explains how to mitigate some potential issues, and others have recapped some of the same educated conclusions that mirror Flat6's experience and recommendations.

Between this and some other posted threads, it's all there. If I were Flat6, I'd hedge here, because he's a business man who makes money rebuilding the engines we are asking him to help us save; he's opining on a subject that experts might get into a bar fight over, and it's always going to be anecdotal evidence compounded daily with people who don't understand statistics that are going to bust the ***** of everyone out there.

It's like telling people how not to get lung cancer, then listening to someone who never smoked complain to you about their lung cancer while pointing out how 20 people they know as heavy smokers never got lung cancer... except minus all the robust statistics and investigative reporting done over decades and with millions of people as living case studies.

It's a volatile subject to say the least.

Use the best oil you can, and change it thrice the rate Porsche suggests, and be mindful of how cars warm up -- especially high performance cars. Be mindful of how cars cool down -- especially high performance cars. Read all the posts in here and some of the links.

It's all there. It really is!

.

Flat6 Innovations

Doesn't make business sense to tell people how to keep their engines from failing if the only thing that you do is build engines... We don't just build engines, primarily we are developers. Sure we build engines using the developments, we've created, but we'll never touch even 1% of the cars produced.

It also doesn't make sense to create components or develop processes to curb the problems if you are just a rebuilder and want things to fail. Again, that's not the case.

Ever seen me advertise engines in Panorama or Excellence? Nope, and you won't, because the work finds us in greater numbers than we even want at times.

I love solving problems and I love to learn things before the next guy and even teach him those things. Hell, I have had all my main competitors sit in my classroom and learn from me and some have attended more than one class. When I see those guys taking notes and I see their eyes light up when I give them the "silver bullet" points that will save their asses, I know, that I know, what they didn't already know. That's what makes me tick.

I wish it was easier to share information online, if it was I'd do it a lot more and you'd all benefit from it. It's not, and it sucks. It's a sharp bladed, double edged sword.

KNS

Outstanding. If I ever end up purchasing a 997 that is the sort of class I would love to attend.

Flat6 Innovations

The first class, in January, is already 1/2 filled and it hasn't even been released yet :-)

tigerspill

Ignore the complainers and whingers!
If they don't like reading your posts why don't they grow up and just not read them. They are just behaving like spoilt children.

From what I have read you provide useful and factual information. Don't stop because if a few whingers.

Sniff

Well that is certainly part of it Jake, but all the air-cooled versions of the 911 experienced the same economic downturn, and we all know where their values are right now. WRT depreciation, the 996 is holding its value the worst among all 911 models. To say it has depreciated the same as all other European sports cars is unfortunate . . . 911's have always been able to do better than that. All I'm saying is the hype over the IMS bearing played (and still plays) a big part in where those cars sit price-wise. There are several other factors no doubt, but perhaps we can leave that for a different thread (and forum).

Although I'm not one of the guys who PM'd you asking you to stop responding to this thread, I do see where they are coming from. For me, I find these threads very interesting, and I appreciate your insights. That said, your comments like (ref post #104) "The Lokasil bores of the 997.1 were replaced with a complete Alusil block in the 997.2. Omitting the IMS wasn't smart, and using smaller timing chains and increasing their loads at the same has also proven not to be smart" get people anxious, especially when you don't offer to expound on your remarks. Some people see you as the "Burning Bush" on this matter, so that comes with a responsibility. You can't throw zingers out like the one above and then remain silent on the matter. It's probably best you didn't stir the pot in the first place. I'm not accusing you of anything here Jake, just sharing my observations so far. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario . . . not enjoyable either way.

Sean

Bruce In Philly

I like reading Jake's stuff. Way better read than "What's your favorite color".

Doctor X states everyone in the world is sick. Why? Every patient she sees is sick.

This is OK, way better than people like me assuming stuff and then writing about it like I am about to do here.

I have a few points of cross reference to Jake's commentary that keeps me reading his posts:

1) I personally talked to two folks who had direct experience with his work, one involved in tacking his engines and got steller feedback.
2) My indy, who was 20-some year (??) mechanic at a Porsche dealership, now has his own shop says very simply "These engines are grenades, it is not a matter of if but when." I actually don't agree with this but again, he suffers from the Doctor syndrome... but, to be fair to him, he also sees his fair share of carnage. It is real.
3) Feedback of local Porsche owners, car brokers and the like who purposely steer potential owners away from these engines, particularly the earliest runs 1997-2002(??) Even if 5 % of a potential market knows about or fears this stuff, prices should reflect this.
4) I had two engines blow.

I have been reading these Porsche forums for 14 years. What appears to be true is Porsche lessened the failure rate every year, but never eliminated it. Remember there are multiple failure modes.

The GOOD NEWS is the odds are still with you in a big way. Hard to believe that or take comfort in it but it is true. No one really knows the numbers but Porsche, but IMO, if you maintain the car, frequent oil changes (every 7K miles for my C2S), etc. etc. you will be fine.

I say keep posting Jake. I wish people were more tolerant of you than those that pop off based on assumptions.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Philster

Agreed. Feed us info. We're adults. We can take that info and digest and draw conclusions. If anyone gets scared hearing info, then performance cars are not your thing. Take up building Lego models or buy an econobox.

I'd love for Jake to post their names, because they're a contributing factor in limiting the am't of info and insight we get.

That is just... wrong.
.

Flat6 Innovations

Thats a lot different. Many of the owners of the aircooled cars are not interested in more modern cars, and vice versa. I cut my teeth on aircooled engines and vehicles and many like me favor them because of their simplicity and straight forwardness. We also like the fact that the cars were built by Porsche well before the accountants were in charge. My fleet starts with a 356 and goes through the 993 and while I have owned one of all the modern cars, they don't do "it" for me. The modern amenities are nice, real A/C, heat that doesn't smell like oil but thats not what I appreciate most from a Porsche. I'd rather drive my old '88 Carrera with 300K miles than my 997 that has 425HP and 4 liters of power, but thats just me, and I am weird. My 356 Outlaw with 220HP will smoke the 997 0-100 MPH and its worth more everyday, not less :-)

Honestly, its more "Damned if I do" than if I don't.. I like to share what I learn (at least a portion of it) when possible, and thats when I am "damned if I do". If I don't say anything, the engines still fail and we still see them.

So many of these issues can be solved by preventative procedures and taking the time to just increase service intervals. Now I have finally developed master linked timing chains and a preventative procedure to swap them out if they are found to be failing. This is a hot topic with the later M97 engines that use Renold chains, not IWIS chains from the factory. In times past a chain failure was often misdiagnosed as an IMSB failure, because it had many of the same symptoms and that would cost 20K+ to address. In times past, before I developed these chains and had them made by IWIS a bad chain caught while stretching would mean a 100% complete tear down of the engine just to facilitate the replacement of the two main timing chains. Thats a 12-14K cost just to swap two chains that cost less than 200.00 each.

Today we can retrofit our master linked chains preventatively or repair an engine for thousands of dollars less, and do the work without a complete teardown. Thats just an example of what happens when a dedicated team of fire passers attack the issues, rather than abandoning the engine and just moving on.

Thanks for that report. Gaining that sort of reputation is hard in the world of Porsche engines, maintaining it is the hardest fight one can imagine.

But did he ever learn the engines well enough internally to be proficient with them? Too many people shied away from the engines because they were afraid of them, rather than fighting them and losing a few times, only to win later. Maybe he did.

Again, this is just because they are so misunderstood. Most all the issues have symptoms that can be found during a somewhat invasive PPI thats focused on the engine.

My record for a single customer is 4! You are halfway there!

Yes, I agree that here we are biased because we don't see simple jobs. We don't do oil changes, we don't do brake jobs. We don't have cars arrive and leave the same day. Here, everything that we see is failing, or has failed, or has been given up on by someone else at another shop who took it all apart and packed the pieces in the frunk to ship it here. Its easy to become biased when everything that you see has an issue and you get phone calls everyday from people with less than fortunate situations that are facing decisions and some are desperate. Lots of days I feel more like a Funeral Director than the owner of an engine development company.

The jobs that are the exception to the rule, are the ones that come here from the corners of the continent for preventative procedures to be carried out. Those folks note the issues and they love the car, and want to protect the investment and spend less money, before they have to spend more. Those are the happy folks, and the ones that stay happy.

All of that said, I will say that the readership here on the 997 forum is more open to what we've learned than what I experience on the 996 forum, where I am often bashed simply for breathing.

The best way to help me, help each of you, is to properly police yourselves. You guys have been doing that well, not letting the smartasses get away with making their statements. :-)

RichFL

I'm very much in favor of getting as much information from Jake as possible. Give me information and I'll make my own decisions. Chasing him away or asking him to withhold his valuable experience and insights is foolish.

Robocop305

Agree!! I would love to read more preventive measures from Jake. Tell us the secret of up keeping these cars. I'm all ears.