"Bullet-Proof"...What's Your Definition?
03-11-2014, 01:33 PM
#46
I've climbed into a Camry Taxi the other day... The guy had over 550000 Km on it and he wasn't even out of his lease yet (2011 model).He had only regular maintenance done to the car as per schedule. Not a hint of harshness in that car's powertrain...
As a former Honda/Acura owner, I've never had anything major failing on those cars... Yes. you have the occasional AC/ window regulator/ wheel bearing/ bushings issues but the engine/tranny never gave me any issues.
I'd say my definition of "buletproof" is something like the old Odissey my wife used to have. Before trading it in for a XC90, this car had 250000 km and the only things outside regular/scheduled maintenance that failed were a front wheel bearing and the AC compressor clutch. This vehicle had at least another uneventful 100k left in her if maintained properly...
I'm contemplating this issue with my new 997.1 C2... I absolutely love this car and if I'm honest I had to stretch to get it so it's not something I will replace in a few years as I'm pretty far from being a rich dude... I'd love to keep this car forever, or at least have some confidence such a prospect would be feasible. The stuff one reads in these forums is not exactly encouraging...
As a former Honda/Acura owner, I've never had anything major failing on those cars... Yes. you have the occasional AC/ window regulator/ wheel bearing/ bushings issues but the engine/tranny never gave me any issues.
I'd say my definition of "buletproof" is something like the old Odissey my wife used to have. Before trading it in for a XC90, this car had 250000 km and the only things outside regular/scheduled maintenance that failed were a front wheel bearing and the AC compressor clutch. This vehicle had at least another uneventful 100k left in her if maintained properly...
I'm contemplating this issue with my new 997.1 C2... I absolutely love this car and if I'm honest I had to stretch to get it so it's not something I will replace in a few years as I'm pretty far from being a rich dude... I'd love to keep this car forever, or at least have some confidence such a prospect would be feasible. The stuff one reads in these forums is not exactly encouraging...
03-11-2014, 01:42 PM
#48
03-11-2014, 01:43 PM
#49
Nordschleife Master
What are we talking about here???!!! Geez! Hondas,Toyotas...come on! Who drives a 911 like a Camry?! And if they do,they got the wrong car!
Porsche has gotten a lot of things wrong that caused failures and should stand behind their product(that's another story all together),but to think you're driving a performance engine like it should be driven on street and track and then expect hundreds of thousand of miles from it is a bit exaggerated,don't you think?!
Try driving a Camry aggressive every time and take it to the track,stress the engine and see if you'll get 200K miles from it...
Porsche has gotten a lot of things wrong that caused failures and should stand behind their product(that's another story all together),but to think you're driving a performance engine like it should be driven on street and track and then expect hundreds of thousand of miles from it is a bit exaggerated,don't you think?!
Try driving a Camry aggressive every time and take it to the track,stress the engine and see if you'll get 200K miles from it...
03-11-2014, 01:48 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
The Metzger engine was the only "bullet proof" reference I ever heard! And now the new GT3 cars have there issue. I can't include link (not tech savvy enough) but six have burned world wide and there is a recall! These cars are designed and engineered to be driven EVERY day and put a smile on your face doing so! Are they perfect? Hell no! But we are all here because we know what it is like to drive a 911 and "There is no substitute"!
03-11-2014, 02:16 PM
#51
What are we talking about here???!!! Geez! Hondas,Toyotas...come on! Who drives a 911 like a Camry?! And if they do,they got the wrong car!
Porsche has gotten a lot of things wrong that caused failures and should stand behind their product(that's another story all together),but to think you're driving a performance engine like it should be driven on street and track and then expect hundreds of thousand of miles from it is a bit exaggerated,don't you think?!
Try driving a Camry aggressive every time and take it to the track,stress the engine and see if you'll get 200K miles from it...
Porsche has gotten a lot of things wrong that caused failures and should stand behind their product(that's another story all together),but to think you're driving a performance engine like it should be driven on street and track and then expect hundreds of thousand of miles from it is a bit exaggerated,don't you think?!
Try driving a Camry aggressive every time and take it to the track,stress the engine and see if you'll get 200K miles from it...
However, I drove the sh*t out of my Acura CL... not on the track but every single day for 10 years, and very aggressively... Sold it last week (to a guy that wants to race it) at almost 260k with no major mechanical faults whatsoever...
This should also be the norm on a premium, well engineered german vehicle so the fact it isn't, is a bit unsettling.
Finally I happen to know those Camrys used for taxi service have a pretty tough and rough life. We collected Camry taxi data here in Toronto (instrumented a few cars) and the results were simply appalling. You'd be surprised how much damage idling/ lugging can do to engine and tranny parts.
Last edited by BogdanR; 03-11-2014 at 03:29 PM.
03-11-2014, 04:58 PM
#52
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
My comments on this Toyota vs a Porsche line that sports cars should by their nature be less durable..
I completely disagree with this notion.
1 Why should a mass produced, cheap car naturally be durable?
2 Porsche is the most profitable car company on a per unit basis....so much so that we should be a bit embarrassed regarding what we are paying and what the heck is it we are paying for anyway? Engineers 100 years ago envisioned variable timing etc. etc...
3 It is not correct, IMHO, that Porsches are so advanced and bleeding edge that they naturally are frail. The "great" thing about our cars is that adding more parts and complex manufacturing can be done in a mass market car and still be priced so that consumers can buy it. I really don't see anything in our cars that are so advanced to warrant expected, random kabooms or a short life.
4 I suspect the biggest reason for our engines failing (ignoring the kaboom issues) is simple planned obsolescence. Porsche like any consumer product company does not want their products to last forever. How long that is remains within the discussions of the accountants, market planners and strategists, not in the hand wringing of engineers worried about how to "make it last". Back when GM was building junk, my friends would complain that the things would break as warranty ended... and they called those cars crappy. I called it brilliant engineering.
If you leave out the normal human mistakes and bad decisioning of business and engineering professionals under pressure, there is no reason our cars can't last 500K miles. Cripes, the list price on my car was over $110K!!!! and it enjoyed the cost savings of mass production.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
I completely disagree with this notion.
1 Why should a mass produced, cheap car naturally be durable?
2 Porsche is the most profitable car company on a per unit basis....so much so that we should be a bit embarrassed regarding what we are paying and what the heck is it we are paying for anyway? Engineers 100 years ago envisioned variable timing etc. etc...
3 It is not correct, IMHO, that Porsches are so advanced and bleeding edge that they naturally are frail. The "great" thing about our cars is that adding more parts and complex manufacturing can be done in a mass market car and still be priced so that consumers can buy it. I really don't see anything in our cars that are so advanced to warrant expected, random kabooms or a short life.
4 I suspect the biggest reason for our engines failing (ignoring the kaboom issues) is simple planned obsolescence. Porsche like any consumer product company does not want their products to last forever. How long that is remains within the discussions of the accountants, market planners and strategists, not in the hand wringing of engineers worried about how to "make it last". Back when GM was building junk, my friends would complain that the things would break as warranty ended... and they called those cars crappy. I called it brilliant engineering.
If you leave out the normal human mistakes and bad decisioning of business and engineering professionals under pressure, there is no reason our cars can't last 500K miles. Cripes, the list price on my car was over $110K!!!! and it enjoyed the cost savings of mass production.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
03-11-2014, 05:46 PM
#54
Advanced
I have an 06 997.1 with 42k in miles and no repairs at all since I bought it in 2010. Only routine maintenance and rear tires so far. But shouldn't the question be whether anyone had an engine failure not related to the ims. If no one has, then that should say something about reliability.
03-11-2014, 05:57 PM
#55
Nordschleife Master
failure around/under 45k miles (normal driving maintained properly), with the 4th person in 06 c2 engine went kaput at 70k miles (heavily tracked).
2 of those engines were replaced under porsche, the other 2 rebuilt.
i do believe that pete - Schpee007 has strong merit for this thread.
Last edited by myw; 03-11-2014 at 06:52 PM.
03-11-2014, 06:15 PM
#56
i know 4 people personally on their second engine. 997.1 c2s (05, 06, 07) none of the failures due to ims.
failure around/under 45k miles (normal driving maintained properly), with the 4th person in 06 c2 engine went kaput at 70k miles (heavily tracked).
2 of those engines were replaced under porsche, the other 2 im not so sure.
failure around/under 45k miles (normal driving maintained properly), with the 4th person in 06 c2 engine went kaput at 70k miles (heavily tracked).
2 of those engines were replaced under porsche, the other 2 im not so sure.
So, unless you know another around 100 people who had no problem with their 997 whatsoever...
03-11-2014, 06:15 PM
#57
Nordschleife Master
i 100% agree wholeheartedly.
My comments on this Toyota vs a Porsche line that sports cars should by their nature be less durable..
I completely disagree with this notion.
1 Why should a mass produced, cheap car naturally be durable?
2 Porsche is the most profitable car company on a per unit basis....so much so that we should be a bit embarrassed regarding what we are paying and what the heck is it we are paying for anyway? Engineers 100 years ago envisioned variable timing etc. etc...
3 It is not correct, IMHO, that Porsches are so advanced and bleeding edge that they naturally are frail. The "great" thing about our cars is that adding more parts and complex manufacturing can be done in a mass market car and still be priced so that consumers can buy it. I really don't see anything in our cars that are so advanced to warrant expected, random kabooms or a short life.
4 I suspect the biggest reason for our engines failing (ignoring the kaboom issues) is simple planned obsolescence. Porsche like any consumer product company does not want their products to last forever. How long that is remains within the discussions of the accountants, market planners and strategists, not in the hand wringing of engineers worried about how to "make it last". Back when GM was building junk, my friends would complain that the things would break as warranty ended... and they called those cars crappy. I called it brilliant engineering.
If you leave out the normal human mistakes and bad decisioning of business and engineering professionals under pressure, there is no reason our cars can't last 500K miles. Cripes, the list price on my car was over $110K!!!! and it enjoyed the cost savings of mass production.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
I completely disagree with this notion.
1 Why should a mass produced, cheap car naturally be durable?
2 Porsche is the most profitable car company on a per unit basis....so much so that we should be a bit embarrassed regarding what we are paying and what the heck is it we are paying for anyway? Engineers 100 years ago envisioned variable timing etc. etc...
3 It is not correct, IMHO, that Porsches are so advanced and bleeding edge that they naturally are frail. The "great" thing about our cars is that adding more parts and complex manufacturing can be done in a mass market car and still be priced so that consumers can buy it. I really don't see anything in our cars that are so advanced to warrant expected, random kabooms or a short life.
4 I suspect the biggest reason for our engines failing (ignoring the kaboom issues) is simple planned obsolescence. Porsche like any consumer product company does not want their products to last forever. How long that is remains within the discussions of the accountants, market planners and strategists, not in the hand wringing of engineers worried about how to "make it last". Back when GM was building junk, my friends would complain that the things would break as warranty ended... and they called those cars crappy. I called it brilliant engineering.
If you leave out the normal human mistakes and bad decisioning of business and engineering professionals under pressure, there is no reason our cars can't last 500K miles. Cripes, the list price on my car was over $110K!!!! and it enjoyed the cost savings of mass production.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
03-11-2014, 06:16 PM
#58
Burning Brakes
My comments on this Toyota vs a Porsche line that sports cars should by their nature be less durable..
I completely disagree with this notion.
1 Why should a mass produced, cheap car naturally be durable?
2 Porsche is the most profitable car company on a per unit basis....so much so that we should be a bit embarrassed regarding what we are paying and what the heck is it we are paying for anyway? Engineers 100 years ago envisioned variable timing etc. etc...
3 It is not correct, IMHO, that Porsches are so advanced and bleeding edge that they naturally are frail. The "great" thing about our cars is that adding more parts and complex manufacturing can be done in a mass market car and still be priced so that consumers can buy it. I really don't see anything in our cars that are so advanced to warrant expected, random kabooms or a short life.
4 I suspect the biggest reason for our engines failing (ignoring the kaboom issues) is simple planned obsolescence. Porsche like any consumer product company does not want their products to last forever. How long that is remains within the discussions of the accountants, market planners and strategists, not in the hand wringing of engineers worried about how to "make it last". Back when GM was building junk, my friends would complain that the things would break as warranty ended... and they called those cars crappy. I called it brilliant engineering.
If you leave out the normal human mistakes and bad decisioning of business and engineering professionals under pressure, there is no reason our cars can't last 500K miles. Cripes, the list price on my car was over $110K!!!! and it enjoyed the cost savings of mass production.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
I completely disagree with this notion.
1 Why should a mass produced, cheap car naturally be durable?
2 Porsche is the most profitable car company on a per unit basis....so much so that we should be a bit embarrassed regarding what we are paying and what the heck is it we are paying for anyway? Engineers 100 years ago envisioned variable timing etc. etc...
3 It is not correct, IMHO, that Porsches are so advanced and bleeding edge that they naturally are frail. The "great" thing about our cars is that adding more parts and complex manufacturing can be done in a mass market car and still be priced so that consumers can buy it. I really don't see anything in our cars that are so advanced to warrant expected, random kabooms or a short life.
4 I suspect the biggest reason for our engines failing (ignoring the kaboom issues) is simple planned obsolescence. Porsche like any consumer product company does not want their products to last forever. How long that is remains within the discussions of the accountants, market planners and strategists, not in the hand wringing of engineers worried about how to "make it last". Back when GM was building junk, my friends would complain that the things would break as warranty ended... and they called those cars crappy. I called it brilliant engineering.
If you leave out the normal human mistakes and bad decisioning of business and engineering professionals under pressure, there is no reason our cars can't last 500K miles. Cripes, the list price on my car was over $110K!!!! and it enjoyed the cost savings of mass production.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
Last edited by Blu311; 03-13-2014 at 08:30 PM. Reason: Edit
03-11-2014, 06:17 PM
#59
Nordschleife Master
LMAO. i do know other p-car guys with thier cars running fine as well!
i LOVE toyota's (obviously) for this very reason. in my youth i beat the $h!t out of my integra for practically a decade... i overfilled it with oil (black smoke everywhere), sometimes drove on low oil, and likely fried the piston rings (white smoke everywhere) during my 125k miles of usage, im sure the current owner is still enjoying that never-dying car. your awesome story brings back warm memories.
In addition, I know Toyotas and Porsches are different animals, but my mom/brothers Corolla was abused fairly hard for most of its 300,000 miles so don’t use the excuse that Toyotas are more reliable bc they are not abused… It was driven a lot by irresponsible teenagers while it was my mother’s car for the first 100k mi, often maxed out to its top speed of 118 on south Dakota highways, neutral dropped on several occasions when drag racing friends in their parents equally slow cars, a number of hit deer and small accidents, you name it and we probably did it. Then my little brother took it to college, that car went 4 years and 50k+ mi (from roughly 120k-170k) WITHOUT AN OIL CHANGE! And things only got fixed when they broke… the engine finally died at just under 300k. Of course my parents have owned a dozen Toyotas in large part due to their reliability… I just don’t think Porsche cares too much about it, like Bruce wrote, but they should still hopefully last well beyond 100k with proper care and maintenance.
Last edited by myw; 03-11-2014 at 06:32 PM.
03-11-2014, 06:29 PM
#60
I don't know... A used Corolla is just junk (just try and sell one 10 years old and over 200k). OTOH We're pushed to believe that an used Porsche is still a Porsche.
There's a disconnect here if I'm not mistaken. A piece of junk will happily add at least another 100k to those 200k with minimal scheduled maintenance, yet a fine piece of German engineering will need 3 expensive rebuilds and a lot of luck to make it to the same mileage?
Am I the only one who finds this slightly ridiculous?
There's a disconnect here if I'm not mistaken. A piece of junk will happily add at least another 100k to those 200k with minimal scheduled maintenance, yet a fine piece of German engineering will need 3 expensive rebuilds and a lot of luck to make it to the same mileage?
Am I the only one who finds this slightly ridiculous?
Last edited by BogdanR; 03-11-2014 at 08:58 PM.