SecretAsianMan

+1

The claims are too good to be true. Good enough that I think something fishy must be happening with the dyno charts.

If they are true or even close to it I'll buy a set tomorrow.

Chris@Fabspeed

Thats great that Europipe likes to disclose that information. They are a well respected company and fill their niche well.
I will disclose the length, it's not a huge secret and anyone who buys these can easily just measure the diameter. The prmiary pipe length on these is approx. 432mm.


The gains are real. If you look at the 2nd dyno chart I posted, you can see 3 stock runs and 3 runs with headers only were done back to back, to verify the results. The first graph I posted was the BEST stock run compared to the BEST Fabspeed Sport Header run. We did not compare our best run with the worst stock run.

If anyone does not believe the gains, buy a set for your bone stock 997.1 S and perform a before & after dyno on a dynojet on the same day, and send me the actual run files. If the gains are not at least 20 ft. lbs. at any point in the power curve with SAE correction you can return them for a full refund. No refund on shipping or dyno/labor.

Luxter

Hi Chris,
Good to hear from you.
Please note that I don’t question your results. My point is that this forum if frequented by many technically well versed individuals who are engineers or are involved in engineering of one kind or another. You can approach this crowd from a number of angles.
However… the best result, in my humble opinion and I am just a dumb engineer too (ask my wife if in doubt ), would be to present your case highlighting technical aspects of your innovation(s). None of us is running a garage based shady operation trying to steal your business secrets.
Most of us are past the “fart in a can” or bigger (or lauder) is better stage in our lives.
You say that Europipe is a well respected company. We want you to be in that position too.
And I don’t even have a dog in this race as I am not on the market for an exhaust.
Cheers and all the best,

=L=

USMC_DS1

I have to agree with Luxter. We're a technical group. I started out as an ME then spent many years doing EE work in the military and now I'm more a hybrid DBM/Dev Mgr in the IT industry. So the more detailed and technical your information the more likely we'll consider the product seriously. I don't have a dog in this either as I already have 200 cell cats, long race piped exhaust manifolds, cans, and tips... using 70mm pipes. My queries were purely academic and reflective of the type of information other vendors provided during my own search for these products. If anything I would think this type of information is more tech marketing vs. secret formulations. Just consider how Porsche markets their cars sharing technical details re how their systems work without sharing the design blue print.... this type of information helps us to understand how the 911 is differentiated from others out there. These exhaust systems are not inexpensive products so a few more details beyond the dyno is welcomed and would help you to move these products better. BTW, thank you for sharing the length of pipes. As a side note... they may be longer than the x51 header but I would not consider them long pipes as compared to other offerings on the market. Are they of equal length? Impressive dyno results!

Your candid insight re the positives and negatives of such a mod would be productive for many here as well. Like Gibbo I too experienced a lost in low end power after adding an exhaust system which reduced back pressure. I expected this as I've experienced similar results with my prior cars. Only after an ECU remap did the car feel performant again at the low end again. I'm very happy with car both from a low end perspective and how it performs in the upper RPM ranges as well now. It would be great to see postings more indicative of trusted adviser.

I hope you take these comments as constructive in nature. I think we could all certainly gain from more information, more technical details, and more insight. Again, thank you for being a forum sponsor and bringing products such as these to market for us to take advantage off.

SecretAsianMan

There are enough baloney products for 997s with baloney dynos that it's very hard for a consumer to know what actually is going to provide gains or not.

There are no shortage of dyno charts showing that one of the very popular intake plenums add a bunch of power. But some carefully controlled tests by a very reputable company showed that they do nothing.

I'd encourage any consumer on this board to read up here to better understand how dyno charts can lie: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...-plenum-5.html

What I'd need to believe a dyno chart for a car as sophisticated as a 997 is extensive details on the testing methodology.

Heck, even Fabspeed's own page used to say that the catbypass x-pipe improves low-end torque when we know that's not true and right here on this thread Fabspeed confirmed that it loses significant power down low. If you don't believe me, look up https://www.fabspeed.com/997_997SCarrera.html on google cache for 1 week ago, it says "•Fabspeed X-pipe catbypass will improve low-end torque and mid-range power dramatically."

Chris@Fabspeed

Hi all,

Sorry for the delay in response but the shop has been very busy lately. Any technical insight I can give I would be happy to pass along. There is not much magic in producing 997.1S headers that improve over stock. Applying some basic principles of performance exhaust manifold design will give you a good product right off the bat (as compared to Porsche's stock manifold). Some basic principles:

-Smooth transitions
-The Largest bend radii that you can get away with
-Proper tubing size for discplacement/power/rpm operating range
-Proper merge collector
-Proper collector diameter

As we all know Porsche likes to protect certain models as far as performance figures, but still likes to give the consumer so many options that they cover most power & performance areas. I as well as many others feel the 997S cars were intentionally held back to keep the performance gap with both the X51 package and also the GT3 cars. With that being said here are some pictures and notes of Fabspeed's Sport Headers and the factory manifolds for 997.1.

Notes:

Fabspeed headers feature a cast flange which allows us to dictate the length of transition from the oval port of the cylinder head to the round tubing geometry, where as the factory transition is done with the tubing and is more abrupt. Our primaries are externally welded to the casting so there is no inconsistency regarding the ports/port matching.

Factory header collector allows direct reversion of end cylinders into each other's runner (hard to capture with the picture). Fabspeed uses castings with proper merge collectors to prevent reversion and maintain or increase exhaust gas velocity. The exits of our primaries are all pointed in the same general direction, rather than point towards each other, as in the factory design.

user 72902

I am a Fabspeed customer and want to say their products and service has always been top shelf. Used them on previous P-cars that were not normally aspirated. When I decide to modify my exhaust on this one I'll be giving them a call.

AWay

Curious about how they compare to the X51's you mentioned earlier that you tested. I wouldn't mind seeing that graph as well to see how much these improve upon them as many of us have already purchased these factory upgraded parts.

The headers do look lovely Chris.

woodyTPA

I have a Fabspeed header,original crossover cats, and mufflers, and from experience with super sprint systems in 4 and 6 cylinder VW's I th early 90's, this system is similar in terms of low rpm loss of appreciated power and torque.Once above 3500 rpm's and with a cold air intake and in my case software flash, the power comes on fast. I have been invited to Dino my car in Tampa.when I get time I will and post results.with all of the hairsplitting everyone is doing, why don't some of you simply go to a PCA event and drive a modded car? The difference is real. I bought my exhaust from a garage in New York on eBay.supposedly from a 996 c4s but it bolted up like a glove.the quality rivals the super sprint product that I have used, but perhaps not what techart offer, although the Fabspeed is half the price of techart.just my 2 cents.

USMC_DS1

Chris, nice details re the product. I can see how this exhaust manifold could out perform the x51. I believe those longer pipes should also be able to deal with the heat cycles better and therefore be more durable in the long term. GL with the product.

cvtbenhogan

As USMC DS01 stated, nice detail on your product. I'm considering headers down the road and would install when replacing my water pump. Good luck and I'll circle back with you.

Papa Fittig

Chris,
Thanks for the post explaining some of design principles. Your product looks attractive enough for me to start thinking.
I am wondering what are the target RPMs your header was designed for?

Here is a good short read on some of the myths and whys of an exhaust system I found useful.

http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/571...sure-the-myth/

Luxter

Let me tell you that the X51 headers have very similar weld bead inside each cylinder flange. Took me a while to remove six of them with a die grinder.
Good stuff guys.
Also, happy to see that the ground clearance is not affected by Fabspeed design. Very important.

Chris@Fabspeed

Just be careful with grinding away that weld, you can weaken that joint and the material remaining will crack. My suggestion would be to TIG weld either over your grind with a fuse weld, or better yet place a few beads on the outside, where the tube meets the flange. Make sure to bolt the flange down to a flat Jig to prevent any warpage, as stainless steel really likes to pull, even the crappy grade the factory uses.

cairo94507

Very nice reply by Chris at Fabspeed. This is definitely a tough crowd but those who are making the legitimate products our cars deserve should not shy away from questions. Chris stepped up to the plate and hit the ball out of the park. Great looking headers.