mrsullivan

I have a C63 Black Series on order. 2013, one of very few. I ordered in a "subtle" spec, if that word can be used to describe this car. I.E. no wing, track pkg winglets, no matte paint, etc. Just Obsidian Black. Pretty standard spec. I have driven the "standard" C63 AMG coupe, but not the Black. From everything I read and hear, I expect it to be an "epic" (as the kids say) driving experience. Scored #2 to the 991 S as 2012 drivers car by Motor Trend, Chris Harris put it against a GT3 RS 4.0 on a recent review and raved, etc. Lots of positive press, essentially a detuned SLS AMG engine, etc.

Only problem is that the early November delivery is giving me too much time to think At the spec I ordered, the price is on equal footing to a brand new GTS. Or certainly, an opportunity to save $20k or so and pick up a lightly used GTS. I have driven several 997 S, but not the GTS. Again, I expect its as good if not slightly better driving experience with nice bells /whistles optioned. I have a read on a couple new and used that I could pull the trigger on.

They may seem like odd cars to compare. But I am looking for a weekend/toy that will be an experience and excite me. After several pristine 993s, I am looking for a more modern experience. But I require at least a small backseat. If you give yourself a roughly $100k or less budget for such a car, at least in my case, I come to these two choices. Yes, there is the 997 turbo, but having driven it (unholy fast) I find the experience a little clinincal. And for a weekend only toy, I dont think its the right choice. Of the Porsche lineup, the GTS seems the way to go.

So curious people reaction to these two cars and if if you had the option, which you would pick. Yes, I know that I am on a Porsche 997 board, and I know that the answers will be biased. But I have actually over the years found rennlisters to be enthusiasts, not just of Porsches, but in general. Which would you pick?

And before anyone mentions 2005 Aston Martins or new Maserati GTs, etc....those cars are all very cool looking and certainly head turners, but I think I would like to stick with Porsche or AMG. Not looking for the maintenance/reliability/depreciation headaches from exotics. The Audi RS5 is a car I have tried to get excited about, but for a weekend toy, it just doesnt cut it for me. And I dont like the direction BMW has gone on design and some other elements of their M cars. The M6 could maybe be interesting, but I dont think it will be as raw or fun as a GTS or Black Series.

Thanks!

Tcc1999

It's nice to have this type of quandary but what are your criteria (maybe I missed them)? Something that is "an experience and excites you" is, well, a bit vague. Is it performance, styling, uniqueness . . . I'm just asking because I don't want to ramble on about my observations about the GTS if they are irrelevant to what kind of info you're looking for.

USMC_DS1

Since you've owned several 993 I suspect you may be looking for a similar 911 drive feel but with more power. I'm guessing here but I think you'll find the C63 heavy along with associated handling characteristics compared to the 993 although the C63 will have gobs of HP. That would be a revolutionary departure from the 993 whereas the 997 GTS would be more evolutionary. Slightly heavier especially in 2WD configuration, quicker, faster, more HP, and yet closer to the 993 driving experience than the C63... really depends on whether you want a total departure from the past(993) with a C63 or an arguably improvement in creature comfort and performance in the form of a GTS.

An interesting contemplation. I struggled with similar thoughts coming from my prior "lighter" street cruiser: '98 E36 M3 cab supercharged vs. E93 M3 vs. M6 vs. 997 C2S. Wifey loved the M3 but I eventually had to go with the 997 as it was closest to the drive feel of my older lighter M3. I could not get over the heavy feel of the others options.

mrsullivan

Sure, let me be more specific.

- something relatively unique, that I wont see at every stop light
- exciting to me means usable torque, driver engagement, handling, exhaust note...fast is good, want fast, but not worried about whether I am .10 faster to 60mph as the guy next to me
- visually different/interesting... if I go to a Cars n Coffee, something that will be interesting in looks, not just drive
- seat of pants experience important
- must have backseat to at least accomodate small kids, so a coupe/2+2 configuration... GT3 or R8, etc. wont work

mrsullivan

Very interesting way to put it - evolution vs. departure. I am definitely looking for something different than the 993 experience. As much as I have enjoyed that, and may be back, I am looking for something a bit more comfortable, with ipod cable and good A/C The interest to me in the Black Series is the naturally aspirated usable torque. Having driven the "lesser" 481 hp/450 torque version, it made me giggle. Of course not quite as involving as driving a 911, so that is the trade-off. I know that I would enjoy rowing the gears manually on the GTS and that it would be a more involving drive.

I guess my point is that while the GTS will be more evolutionary, I think both will be so dramatically different than my 993 experience, hard to compare to that. I owned an 08 RS4, which is obviously different also, but I assume will be closer to the GTS experience than the 993.

Dr.Bill

Difficult list. Around here, there is a Porsche at every stop light. Sometimes more than one.

Also, don't the AMG Black Series cars have the rear seat deleted? Seems that won't work either. And in my experience, AMG and depreciation go hand-in-hand. Black Series cars not quite as bad, but if you didn't order all the Black Series bits people want, who knows?

I would say the Carrera GTS or a 997.2 turbo would fulfill most of your desires.

Tcc1999

Thanks.

-I don't think the GTS is particularly unique. Well, it is in that PAG made fewer compared to other iterations but it doesn't look much different. There are a number of 911s where I live and, while I don't see them constantly, they are not rare. To those who know, they'll pick out a GTS but most people won't. To solve this, I did a PTS in Turquoise Blue. It may be the only GTS in this color and one of only a handful of 997's similarly optioned. It does pop and I've gotten a lot of comments on the color. But, to give you an example of how people don't generally know the difference, my GTS replaced an '08 Speed Yellow C2S. When people saw the new Turquoise lue GTS they asked me if I had my Speed Yellow car painted (to which I politely said, "No, it's a new car")!

-Exciting. Hmm, well, I think the GTS is a car that what you put into it is what you get out of it. By that I mean, if you drive it like and old lady (no offense to old ladies) like I do most of the time, you won't notice any difference compared to a base Carrera (and a base Carrera is a great car!). On the Track (which is generally the only place I really go fast), it can be a seat of the pants experience. In my '08 C2S I never found myself wanting more power or kvetching abut the handling. But in the GTS, well, for me, it requires a lot of attention because it can easily get away from you. I don't feel the torque curve much differently but it is more beastly than the C2S. And the handling is very crisp. I think that anyone who has driven both cars would agree that there is a greater fun factor in the GTS compared to other 997s when driving them hard

The exhaust note could be greater. The stock PSE is okay. I put Sharkwerks X pipes on and it woke it up quite a bit. Some people will say that it is still too quiet with this mod but for me, where I live and drive too loud is a bad thing. The center bypass is fine. It gives the car a throatier rasp, which is nice, but it not so loud that I feel embarrassed when I pick up my daughter (6th grade) from school. For me, well, the car is a vivid blue so it visually gets people's attention, I don't need to aural attention attention that an louder exhaust system would provide.

In terms of being faster than the guy next to you. Well, by example, since I'm not out to race anyone on the street many cars pull away from stop lights faster than me, but . . . there was one time when a guy in an E46 (M3) was just all over me. I ignored him for a good 20 minutes. Finally, we were both at a stop light and I was just really annoyed. A dose of perspective I figured was in order - which he got. So, yes, there is power there if and when you feel you need it (and the brakes are very good). In the movie "Kelly's Heroes" Donald Sutherland is asked why his Sherman Tank has so many reverse gears and he replies something like, "Because I like to be able to get out of trouble faster than I got into it" That pretty much sums up the GTS, it can get you into trouble very quickly but can also get you out of it in the same manner.

-Visually Different. See first set of comments. Mine is so because of the color. Day One at Rennsport Reunion IV it drew a lot of attention, not because it was a GTS but because of the color.

-Seat of the Pants. It's there if you want it. Displays all the quirks you expect from a 997.

-The rear seat is supposed to be the same as the C2/S but mine seems a bit smaller. I think this may be due to the fact that the Sports Buckets are a bigger seat with only fore-aft adjustment so it just takes up more room.

Hope these observations on the GTS help. I don't know much about the Benz, in fact not enough to make any comment other than it is a beautiful car and I'm glad I don't have to make a decision on which I'd prefer!

mrsullivan

thanks for all the comments, helpful...

And for Ray, this year they offer a backseat as optional for the Black Series, first time... part of what attracted me.

thanks again, keep the comments coming

am722

I've been looking at a wide range of cars to replace my 997.2 S, as I refuse to buy at 991, and am ready to move on (frankly, done with Porsche after seeing the 991). The Black Series AMG is one I've looked at. I think I've settled on a AM Vantage or a certfied F430 manual with an extended warranty. I've really been up in the air since the 991 was revealed, as I'd just assumed I'd pick up whatever Porsche came out with next. If you get the black, please re-visit and let us know your thoughts.

mrsullivan

I love the Astons. But I need a backseat. That rules out the affordable AM Vantage V8. My next door neighbor, who has a bigger wallet than me, has a 2012 Vantage V12. I have been on many rides with him. The sounds that car makes are fantastic. Its a proper manual, with the looks, grunt, etc. To me it is the perfect fun coupe if you dont need a backseat and money no object. Once you talk backseats in Aston Martin, you get expensive quick, or have to go older. I won't even consider a Ferrari, that will need to wait until later in life

If you just use the $100k mark as price point, I really think that the Black Series is an interesting contender. Certainly the reviews are glowing, with maybe the exception of the not-so-serious hooligan stuff that Clarkson has done in it. A friend of mine at MB likened their Black Series cars to the GT3 RS 4.0, saying that MB doesnt make any money off them. They are "halo" models meant to improve the brand, but that it costs just as much to make them as it does to sell them. Not sure how true that is, but for 2013 my understand is that only 150 will be sold in the U.S. If true, pretty good price-to-rarity ration at a base price of USD $105k.

Back to this post, in the Porsche lineup, like you I am not excited yet by the 991. And I feel that if I go with another Carrera it needs to be something a bit different, hence the GTS. I know that to most average people, they dont know the difference between it or a "regular" 997, but I am ok with that. The small things that make certain models special mean more to enthusiasts than to the general public. Same thing for the Black Series.

am722

If I were seriously looking at a new Porsche these days, I wouldn't think twice about a GTS (though I'd have to get a hell of a deal on it or buy a slightly used one).

rodsky

Interested as to why as I have a similar car to you.

To the OP, I would ultimately pick a GTS. But from my perspective, its sorta apples and oranges. I view a 911 as a sports car with some GT like attributes. Comfortable, BT, Nav etc., so you can live with it daily. I view an M3 or a Mercedes as a Sporty Coupe/Sedan. So 911's (Carreras) start out as sports cars and Porsche makes them a little more GT. M3's and Mercedes Blk series start as sedans/coupes that the manufacturer tries to make more sporty. Different.

I had an M3 and while I liked it, it wasnt really that great at anything. But very good at a lot of things. I just prefer (for me) the sports car that I can live with daily. At some point i'm more inclined to go to a Gt3 which is further down the spectrum vs. "back" to a M3, AM, Maserati etc.

I'd love a F car - i like them. But when I get close to doing it I back away. Too much attention. Cant just run around town with it like I do the P car. I use the 997.2 for almost anything and fly very much under the radar - especially in LA.

am722

Part of it can be chalked up to vehicular ADD. I will have had this car 4 years come February, and I had a 997.1 for 4 years prior to that. As my father traded cars every few months while I was growing up, these were minor eternities. It's time for a change.

Also, I'm just not digging the direction that Porsche is heading. While I could easily tell that my 997.2 was faster and more capable than my 997.1, it felt incrementally less raw than my 997.1 did. I feel like that incremental movement has become a giant leap with the 991. And so I now need to choose between a crazy Italian, or what Porsche appears to truly be trying to imitate (but has failed to approach)--the Vantage.

beden1

I have a new 911 GTS cabriolet and love it after 3 weeks of ownership. I came out of a Corvette ZO6 before the Porsche.

I think the one issue that has not been discussed in this thread is that in Texas, the roads are flat and boring to navigate. You can get up to speed but then what? It's the same thing I experience in FL where I had my ZO6. The car was wasted on those flat straight roads. Here in PA and the NE, we have mountain and back country roads with many twistes and other challenging roadways, and where you can really appreciate a Porsche for it's effortless high revving engine and in how great it handles.

In areas like Texas and FL, most of the fun comes from how the car looks, and because of this, I would suggest getting more bling from the MB.

USMC_DS1

We actually have the hill country here in NW Austin. Likely not as good as PA but hilly and fun. Plus where it's flat we can do 85 mph... boring drive though. I'd like to see the OP get the MB just to hear about some varying reviews on the forum. Would be interesting to see what he does after a few years of MB ownership. For me it would be the GTS with MT given the choice. BTW, beautiful g-red GTS cab!