Teaching people to drive stick on your car...pros/cons
06-25-2012, 10:28 AM
#31
Race Director
It's my nephew....25 years old....a tennis pro at a country club in NJ. Drives a Harley (I know not the same) and I'd love to teach him but don't want to screw the clutch up???
He's smart and very coordinated but I'm not sure if that makes it easier or not....just in a quandary.
Tom
He's smart and very coordinated but I'm not sure if that makes it easier or not....just in a quandary.
Tom
When I got my first car, a manual, at 22 my father in law (ex-cop) rode with me as I drove the car with a learner's permit.
I had the basics mastered in just moments. The clutch life of my cars since then has been quite good. Example? My 02 Boxster has 256K miles on its original clutch.
I suspect your nephew will do just fine. If he doesn't and you'll know it in just a few minutes, take over the driving and give him a driver training gift certificate at a local driver training school that offers manual equipped cars for driver lessons.
Or let him get his own manual transmission car with which to learn to drive a manual.
Sincerely,
Macster.
06-25-2012, 10:53 AM
#32
Drifting
Thread Starter
If he has driven a clutch/manual shift motorcycle he knows the basics. I learned to drive motorcycles before cars and then I learned to drive cars using an automatic. All of my car driving from 15 and half to 22 years old was driving automatics.
When I got my first car, a manual, at 22 my father in law (ex-cop) rode with me as I drove the car with a learner's permit.
I had the basics mastered in just moments. The clutch life of my cars since then has been quite good. Example? My 02 Boxster has 256K miles on its original clutch.
I suspect your nephew will do just fine. If he doesn't and you'll know it in just a few minutes, take over the driving and give him a driver training gift certificate at a local driver training school that offers manual equipped cars for driver lessons.
Or let him get his own manual transmission car with which to learn to drive a manual.
Sincerely,
Macster.
When I got my first car, a manual, at 22 my father in law (ex-cop) rode with me as I drove the car with a learner's permit.
I had the basics mastered in just moments. The clutch life of my cars since then has been quite good. Example? My 02 Boxster has 256K miles on its original clutch.
I suspect your nephew will do just fine. If he doesn't and you'll know it in just a few minutes, take over the driving and give him a driver training gift certificate at a local driver training school that offers manual equipped cars for driver lessons.
Or let him get his own manual transmission car with which to learn to drive a manual.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Tom
06-25-2012, 11:44 AM
#33
4th Gear
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2 words - beater truck.
A cheap old truck with a manual (think late 60s scout or 70s blazer) will be cheaper than a Porsche clutch, once you learn one of those you will be able to drive any manual transmission. That and after a few months once the kid is done learning on it you can likely sell it for just as much as you put into it.
A cheap old truck with a manual (think late 60s scout or 70s blazer) will be cheaper than a Porsche clutch, once you learn one of those you will be able to drive any manual transmission. That and after a few months once the kid is done learning on it you can likely sell it for just as much as you put into it.
06-25-2012, 12:36 PM
#34
I found the most effective way to teach stick is to spend the first few lessons having them learn where the engagement point is before doing ANYTHING else. Start on a flat or even slight downward incline and just have them let off the clutch until it engages. The only other thing to teach them in this phase is to put their foot on the dead pedal when they are not on the clutch. People tend to "hover" over the clutch which can lead to bad things. Do this over and over and over and over again until it's burned into their brain. Once you master the engagement point, the rest is fairly simple and it lessens the chance that they will burn the clutch.
Next, phase in the gas pedal. Do that over and over and over and over again. Then phase in up-shifting. etc. etc. The main theme is, as with all things, do not expect too much too soon. It takes plenty of time and patience.
Jason
06-25-2012, 12:48 PM
#35
Drifting
Thread Starter
I taught myself how to drive stick on a 987. I am teaching my girlfriend on a 997. As others have said, the most likely scenario is they will stall (possibly frequently).
I found the most effective way to teach stick is to spend the first few lessons having them learn where the engagement point is before doing ANYTHING else. Start on a flat or even slight downward incline and just have them let off the clutch until it engages. The only other thing to teach them in this phase is to put their foot on the dead pedal when they are not on the clutch. People tend to "hover" over the clutch which can lead to bad things. Do this over and over and over and over again until it's burned into their brain. Once you master the engagement point, the rest is fairly simple and it lessens the chance that they will burn the clutch.
Next, phase in the gas pedal. Do that over and over and over and over again. Then phase in up-shifting. etc. etc. The main theme is, as with all things, do not expect too much too soon. It takes plenty of time and patience.
Jason
I found the most effective way to teach stick is to spend the first few lessons having them learn where the engagement point is before doing ANYTHING else. Start on a flat or even slight downward incline and just have them let off the clutch until it engages. The only other thing to teach them in this phase is to put their foot on the dead pedal when they are not on the clutch. People tend to "hover" over the clutch which can lead to bad things. Do this over and over and over and over again until it's burned into their brain. Once you master the engagement point, the rest is fairly simple and it lessens the chance that they will burn the clutch.
Next, phase in the gas pedal. Do that over and over and over and over again. Then phase in up-shifting. etc. etc. The main theme is, as with all things, do not expect too much too soon. It takes plenty of time and patience.
Jason
Tom
06-25-2012, 06:07 PM
#36
Drifting
Learning to drive stick is not difficult or bad for the car, IF you are a decent teacher and the student is a descent student. However, I'd recommend you don't use a Porsche, not because of the value, but because the car is very unforgiving and makes the learning process so much harder.
A more consumer clutch will less severe bite allows a bigger spot to 'feel' the clutch biting without stalling the engine, etc. Good luck at finding a stick rental car.
The key to teaching a manual gearbox as I experienced them as student and teacher:
1) Patience with the student... let them fail without you talking or correcting all the time
2) Useful feedback and useful exercises to train the skills needed
3) Location of training - you need a space without immediate traffic and obstacles and one with some gentle inclines.
A more consumer clutch will less severe bite allows a bigger spot to 'feel' the clutch biting without stalling the engine, etc. Good luck at finding a stick rental car.
The key to teaching a manual gearbox as I experienced them as student and teacher:
1) Patience with the student... let them fail without you talking or correcting all the time
2) Useful feedback and useful exercises to train the skills needed
3) Location of training - you need a space without immediate traffic and obstacles and one with some gentle inclines.
06-25-2012, 06:38 PM
#37
Drifting
Thread Starter
Learning to drive stick is not difficult or bad for the car, IF you are a decent teacher and the student is a descent student. However, I'd recommend you don't use a Porsche, not because of the value, but because the car is very unforgiving and makes the learning process so much harder.
A more consumer clutch will less severe bite allows a bigger spot to 'feel' the clutch biting without stalling the engine, etc. Good luck at finding a stick rental car.
The key to teaching a manual gearbox as I experienced them as student and teacher:
1) Patience with the student... let them fail without you talking or correcting all the time
2) Useful feedback and useful exercises to train the skills needed
3) Location of training - you need a space without immediate traffic and obstacles and one with some gentle inclines.
A more consumer clutch will less severe bite allows a bigger spot to 'feel' the clutch biting without stalling the engine, etc. Good luck at finding a stick rental car.
The key to teaching a manual gearbox as I experienced them as student and teacher:
1) Patience with the student... let them fail without you talking or correcting all the time
2) Useful feedback and useful exercises to train the skills needed
3) Location of training - you need a space without immediate traffic and obstacles and one with some gentle inclines.
I teach adults for a living and unlike the participants in my Workshops........this guy I love!!!
Tom
06-25-2012, 07:59 PM
#38
Drifting
Learning to drive stick is not difficult or bad for the car, IF you are a decent teacher and the student is a descent student. However, I'd recommend you don't use a Porsche, not because of the value, but because the car is very unforgiving and makes the learning process so much harder.
A more consumer clutch will less severe bite allows a bigger spot to 'feel' the clutch biting without stalling the engine, etc. Good luck at finding a stick rental car.
The key to teaching a manual gearbox as I experienced them as student and teacher:
1) Patience with the student... let them fail without you talking or correcting all the time
2) Useful feedback and useful exercises to train the skills needed
3) Location of training - you need a space without immediate traffic and obstacles and one with some gentle inclines.
A more consumer clutch will less severe bite allows a bigger spot to 'feel' the clutch biting without stalling the engine, etc. Good luck at finding a stick rental car.
The key to teaching a manual gearbox as I experienced them as student and teacher:
1) Patience with the student... let them fail without you talking or correcting all the time
2) Useful feedback and useful exercises to train the skills needed
3) Location of training - you need a space without immediate traffic and obstacles and one with some gentle inclines.
06-25-2012, 08:38 PM
#39
Drifting
Thread Starter
+1... good advise. I find the Japanese cars to have a fairly easy clutch to learn on. For example, an old Toyota truck or 4Runner, Mazda 323, etc. My 20 year old 4Runner weaned my wife and my youngest son off automatic to the world of standard transmission. The whole family has now driven the 911 successfully, however, my wife will not drive it unless absolutely necessary. I'm a lucky man.
Me too as my wife has not one iota of interest in driving the 911 but she loves looking at it and even riding in kit if I don't put the roof down!! I also have a feeling that I may be a little older than you too!!
Tom
06-26-2012, 05:34 PM
#40
Drifting
The key to the 'location of training' is that you have some slight incline space to work with as well as flat surface. You can have them master the clutch slowly on the flat first. What works well there is learning to get the car moving from a dead stop with it in 1st gear and using ONLY the clutch (no gas). With the proper clutch control they should be able to get it moving without stalling (the end state once they have mastered it). Having them learn what to feel for and listen for as the clutch slowly bites and as it gets let in too quickly and the engine begins to buck ever so slightly. Learning that clutch in and out dynamic just with first is probably plenty for lesson #1.
Then once they have that somewhat mastered, they can go on to shifting up into 2nd... then 3rd..... then slowing and shifting down into 2nd again. All on flat. Don't do shifting down into 1st as thats really tricky and many trannies are set up to only allow it at near standstill.
THEN, when that is mastered, add the slight incline. Now they need to use gas and clutch and get faster at engaging 1st to prevent roll back. But they can also experience roll back, learn how to control it (use of hand-brake while releasing clutch and applying break.. 3 things at once), and learn how to hold the hill with partial engaged clutch and how to drive off by applying gas and more clutch out.
And don't forget the critical incline parking rules (wheels pointing the right way).. .since you don't have a park but would put it in the correct gear (1st if pointing up hill, reverse if pointing down hill).
Fun times... and take your Dramamine non-drowsey before you start, or roll the windows down. At least for me I get motion sickness easily and those first lessons are a doozy.
But most of all, be patient. To much 'advice and help' frustrates and stresses students out.
06-26-2012, 11:51 PM
#41
Drifting
Thread Starter
I taught my wife in a 94 VW Golf. VW and Audi manual gearboxes are quite forgiving as well.
The key to the 'location of training' is that you have some slight incline space to work with as well as flat surface. You can have them master the clutch slowly on the flat first. What works well there is learning to get the car moving from a dead stop with it in 1st gear and using ONLY the clutch (no gas). With the proper clutch control they should be able to get it moving without stalling (the end state once they have mastered it). Having them learn what to feel for and listen for as the clutch slowly bites and as it gets let in too quickly and the engine begins to buck ever so slightly. Learning that clutch in and out dynamic just with first is probably plenty for lesson #1.
Then once they have that somewhat mastered, they can go on to shifting up into 2nd... then 3rd..... then slowing and shifting down into 2nd again. All on flat. Don't do shifting down into 1st as thats really tricky and many trannies are set up to only allow it at near standstill.
THEN, when that is mastered, add the slight incline. Now they need to use gas and clutch and get faster at engaging 1st to prevent roll back. But they can also experience roll back, learn how to control it (use of hand-brake while releasing clutch and applying break.. 3 things at once), and learn how to hold the hill with partial engaged clutch and how to drive off by applying gas and more clutch out.
And don't forget the critical incline parking rules (wheels pointing the right way).. .since you don't have a park but would put it in the correct gear (1st if pointing up hill, reverse if pointing down hill).
Fun times... and take your Dramamine non-drowsey before you start, or roll the windows down. At least for me I get motion sickness easily and those first lessons are a doozy.
But most of all, be patient. To much 'advice and help' frustrates and stresses students out.
The key to the 'location of training' is that you have some slight incline space to work with as well as flat surface. You can have them master the clutch slowly on the flat first. What works well there is learning to get the car moving from a dead stop with it in 1st gear and using ONLY the clutch (no gas). With the proper clutch control they should be able to get it moving without stalling (the end state once they have mastered it). Having them learn what to feel for and listen for as the clutch slowly bites and as it gets let in too quickly and the engine begins to buck ever so slightly. Learning that clutch in and out dynamic just with first is probably plenty for lesson #1.
Then once they have that somewhat mastered, they can go on to shifting up into 2nd... then 3rd..... then slowing and shifting down into 2nd again. All on flat. Don't do shifting down into 1st as thats really tricky and many trannies are set up to only allow it at near standstill.
THEN, when that is mastered, add the slight incline. Now they need to use gas and clutch and get faster at engaging 1st to prevent roll back. But they can also experience roll back, learn how to control it (use of hand-brake while releasing clutch and applying break.. 3 things at once), and learn how to hold the hill with partial engaged clutch and how to drive off by applying gas and more clutch out.
And don't forget the critical incline parking rules (wheels pointing the right way).. .since you don't have a park but would put it in the correct gear (1st if pointing up hill, reverse if pointing down hill).
Fun times... and take your Dramamine non-drowsey before you start, or roll the windows down. At least for me I get motion sickness easily and those first lessons are a doozy.
But most of all, be patient. To much 'advice and help' frustrates and stresses students out.
All the Best,
Tom
06-27-2012, 12:05 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
I own a 997 and a 1973 914. The clutch on the 997 is much easier to operate, and I am in the process of teaching my 16 year-old to drive it. Once he gets that down, we'll move to the 914.
Prior to his first lesson I warned him that the car would lunge and die on him more than once, and that he should just pay attention and learn from his mistakes. He took that as a challenge not to let it die even once. After the sixth episode, he was ready to let me drive it until the next time. I'm just not too worried about it. The car's pretty resilient, and a damn sight easier to shift than my 914!
Prior to his first lesson I warned him that the car would lunge and die on him more than once, and that he should just pay attention and learn from his mistakes. He took that as a challenge not to let it die even once. After the sixth episode, he was ready to let me drive it until the next time. I'm just not too worried about it. The car's pretty resilient, and a damn sight easier to shift than my 914!
06-27-2012, 04:49 PM
#43
Drifting
TOm, very admirable of you to teach another how to shift.
06-27-2012, 09:46 PM
#44
Drifting
Thread Starter
Classic. I did 3 summers of odd jobs saving to buy my 1st car at the age of 18. I had just moved from Maui to SoCal to attend Loyola Marymount Univ. Got a dorm mate to loan me his automatic Chevy to practice driving around the school parking lot and to pass my California driving test. He drove me down to the local Pontiac dealership the next day with my temporary driver's license in hand and a passport to prove my identity. Paid near list for a black manual Fiero 2m4 with all the options including speakers in the head rest. The test drive was my 1st go at a MT car. The salesman coached me thru the clutch/gas/shifting process. The drive back to campus was my 2nd go at it and in bumper to bumper SoCal traffic. Dumb luck got me thru that traffic without incident. The Fiero had one of the worst gear shifters I've ever driven but at that time she was mine, she was a beauty, and I loved every moment of it... until the day I saw a red 935 at the exotic car dealership in Santa Monica. That seed was planted 28 yrs ago. After raising a family, one war - Desert Storm 1, and multiple career changes - I finally purchased my Guards Red C2S last year. And what a sweet shifter she is... have not felt this way about a car since my 1st one.
TOm, very admirable of you to teach another how to shift.
TOm, very admirable of you to teach another how to shift.
I didn't get married until I was 42 and consequently have no kids. My only other sibling, my sister, had only one son and he is truly a special boy and we've had a special relationship his entire life. We spent a lot of time playing tennis together when I played and he wanted to learn and now he's a pro.
He's as close to a son as I could have and I'll do whatever I ever can to help him. He loves my car so teaching him how to shift is a no brainer for me. It'll be fun!! (I hope)!
Tom
06-27-2012, 09:48 PM
#45
Drifting
Thread Starter
I own a 997 and a 1973 914. The clutch on the 997 is much easier to operate, and I am in the process of teaching my 16 year-old to drive it. Once he gets that down, we'll move to the 914.
Prior to his first lesson I warned him that the car would lunge and die on him more than once, and that he should just pay attention and learn from his mistakes. He took that as a challenge not to let it die even once. After the sixth episode, he was ready to let me drive it until the next time. I'm just not too worried about it. The car's pretty resilient, and a damn sight easier to shift than my 914!
Prior to his first lesson I warned him that the car would lunge and die on him more than once, and that he should just pay attention and learn from his mistakes. He took that as a challenge not to let it die even once. After the sixth episode, he was ready to let me drive it until the next time. I'm just not too worried about it. The car's pretty resilient, and a damn sight easier to shift than my 914!
Thanks.
Tom