Porsche eats caviar, we drive their time bombs. Vent. Long.
11-03-2011, 05:46 PM
#151
Drifting
Corvette (6.2L 6spd)
16 City
19 Combined
26 Hwy
Annual petroleum consumption: 18.0 barrels
911 Carrera (3.6L 6spd)
18 City
21 Combined
25 Hwy
Annual petroleum consumption: 16.3 barrels
(note, the 16.3 probably doesn't include the 3-4 quarts of motor oil burned, add that to the 16.3 barrels)
The overdrive gear does show on the highway, but in any kind of everyday driving for most, folks would end up with more city than highway, so the combined mileage is probably the better indicator. I'd love to be able to commute on 20 miles of highway each day, but unfortunately, its 75-80% surface streets with redlights.
11-03-2011, 06:46 PM
#153
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I hope you don't mind that I flipped the order of your comments, but it struck me that you answered your own criticism. I don't set out to buy an extraordinary brake rotor, camshaft, exhaust system etc., I want an extraordinary car. Although I think there is an argument to be made that in fact Porsche brakes, transmissions, steering, engine power versus efficiency, and other factors are indeed extraordinary it is, as you point out, the completeness of the package that defines the car and makes it unique and compelling.
I disagree with your conclusion that the primary genius of Porsche is in it's marketing. No manufacturer can sustain a 45+ year marketing campaign unless they have a very special product to market. You should read "Excellence Was Expected", the definitive 3 volume history of Porsche automobiles. You would see that it is engineers, not marketeers, who have driven the Porsche brand over the years and a visit to a gathering like the recent Rennsport IV just reinforces that POV. No other single manufacturer and group of owners could have assembled a collection of significant and historic cars like that. If I'm "smitten", as you put it, it's because there is a very good reason to be.
I disagree with your conclusion that the primary genius of Porsche is in it's marketing. No manufacturer can sustain a 45+ year marketing campaign unless they have a very special product to market. You should read "Excellence Was Expected", the definitive 3 volume history of Porsche automobiles. You would see that it is engineers, not marketeers, who have driven the Porsche brand over the years and a visit to a gathering like the recent Rennsport IV just reinforces that POV. No other single manufacturer and group of owners could have assembled a collection of significant and historic cars like that. If I'm "smitten", as you put it, it's because there is a very good reason to be.
Rennsport IV? What a great sales/marketing event.
3 volume history book about Porsche? Sure, I'd read it if you want to send me a copy to borrow. No book that wants to become a popular read analyzes how much Porsche spends marketing their goods in comparison to R&D... the strategy behind robbing the Cayman of the best powertrain bits when it has arguably the best chassis... because it's not fun/entertaining, because it's more for the Harvard Business Journal types.Hey, I'm drinking the 911 kool-aid, but like Quad, it's not Porsche over all in my view. Mustang, Corvettes, Skyline/GTRs... they all have their loyal following for X/Y reason. It takes all parts of a company to help sustain growth. Porsche's done a pretty all right job through the years and they're going to have to keep improving the brand to continue surviving just like anyone else.
Atm, the 911 delivers so VW gets my hard earned $.
11-03-2011, 06:56 PM
#154
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: West Los Angeles & Truckee, CA
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I'm going off of numbers from http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
Corvette (6.2L 6spd)
16 City
19 Combined
26 Hwy
Annual petroleum consumption: 18.0 barrels
911 Carrera (3.6L 6spd)
18 City
21 Combined
25 Hwy
Annual petroleum consumption: 16.3 barrels
(note, the 16.3 probably doesn't include the 3-4 quarts of motor oil burned, add that to the 16.3 barrels)
The overdrive gear does show on the highway, but in any kind of everyday driving for most, folks would end up with more city than highway, so the combined mileage is probably the better indicator. I'd love to be able to commute on 20 miles of highway each day, but unfortunately, its 75-80% surface streets with redlights.
Corvette (6.2L 6spd)
16 City
19 Combined
26 Hwy
Annual petroleum consumption: 18.0 barrels
911 Carrera (3.6L 6spd)
18 City
21 Combined
25 Hwy
Annual petroleum consumption: 16.3 barrels
(note, the 16.3 probably doesn't include the 3-4 quarts of motor oil burned, add that to the 16.3 barrels)
The overdrive gear does show on the highway, but in any kind of everyday driving for most, folks would end up with more city than highway, so the combined mileage is probably the better indicator. I'd love to be able to commute on 20 miles of highway each day, but unfortunately, its 75-80% surface streets with redlights.
11-03-2011, 07:16 PM
#155
Nordschleife Master
I'm going off of numbers from http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
Corvette (6.2L 6spd)
16 City
19 Combined
26 Hwy
Annual petroleum consumption: 18.0 barrels
911 Carrera (3.6L 6spd)
18 City
21 Combined
25 Hwy
Annual petroleum consumption: 16.3 barrels
(note, the 16.3 probably doesn't include the 3-4 quarts of motor oil burned, add that to the 16.3 barrels)
The overdrive gear does show on the highway, but in any kind of everyday driving for most, folks would end up with more city than highway, so the combined mileage is probably the better indicator. I'd love to be able to commute on 20 miles of highway each day, but unfortunately, its 75-80% surface streets with redlights.
Corvette (6.2L 6spd)
16 City
19 Combined
26 Hwy
Annual petroleum consumption: 18.0 barrels
911 Carrera (3.6L 6spd)
18 City
21 Combined
25 Hwy
Annual petroleum consumption: 16.3 barrels
(note, the 16.3 probably doesn't include the 3-4 quarts of motor oil burned, add that to the 16.3 barrels)
The overdrive gear does show on the highway, but in any kind of everyday driving for most, folks would end up with more city than highway, so the combined mileage is probably the better indicator. I'd love to be able to commute on 20 miles of highway each day, but unfortunately, its 75-80% surface streets with redlights.
997.2 GTS PDK - City: 19MPG, Road:26MPG.
The 997.2S PDK numbers used to be 18/27MPG.
Advantage Porsche!
11-03-2011, 07:44 PM
#156
Race Director
Now you're not going to say later that you didn't really mean to put down Rennsport IV as a marketing event, are you? I guarantee you that the 400 owners who brought their race cars to Rennsport, not to mention the 1300 Porsches parked in the corral weren't there because of marketing. It's PCA and Porsche owners that organize, volunteer and make things like Rennsport happen. Porsche is more than happy to go along for the ride, no question, but it's not marketing that is the impetus behind these events.
3 volume history book about Porsche? Sure, I'd read it if you want to send me a copy to borrow. No book that wants to become a popular read analyzes how much Porsche spends marketing their goods in comparison to R&D... the strategy behind robbing the Cayman of the best powertrain bits when it has arguably the best chassis... because it's not fun/entertaining, because it's more for the Harvard Business Journal types.
I'm not afraid to say that Porsche is, for me, the best sports car. I'm not saying there aren't other interesting cars or even other cars that I wouldn't mind owning, but none instead of a 911. In a way, I guess that does mean Porsche "over all". Seems obvious, really, since I could have bought any of the others you mention, and didn't. I will say this. Hold an event for Mustangs, Corvettes, BMW's, etc at a place like Laguna Seca in October. Would anything close to the variety and number of cars and owners show up as showed up for Rennsport?? I don't think so. There's a reason for that.......
Last edited by Mike in CA; 11-04-2011 at 12:31 AM. Reason: sp.
11-03-2011, 08:25 PM
#157
and once again, I'm not saying 997s exhibit excessive oil burning. I would need to see statistics before I would. I'm saying that when a company says 1qt/368 miles is acceptable, they are worried more about profits than customer loyalty.
A 997 that DID consume 1qt/368 miles would not perform.
A 997 that DID consume 1qt/368 miles would not perform.
11-04-2011, 01:47 PM
#158
Race Director
11-04-2011, 06:15 PM
#159
Nordschleife Master
Can someone help me here and point out an auto manufacturer that does not make cars for profit as their prime motivator. 
I think Porsche is no different in that sense but they are different from many in that "performance and competition" is at the heart of their product identity and has been from day 1.
I hope Porsche continues to make a profit so they can build my next Carrera one day (When the day comes I give up my GTS ...Not!
).
Porsche like any other car is not perfect but it is by and large a very well built, stout little car that goes like stink and carries quite a bit of panache'.
Just say'n.
I think Porsche is no different in that sense but they are different from many in that "performance and competition" is at the heart of their product identity and has been from day 1.
I hope Porsche continues to make a profit so they can build my next Carrera one day (When the day comes I give up my GTS ...Not!
). Porsche like any other car is not perfect but it is by and large a very well built, stout little car that goes like stink and carries quite a bit of panache'.
Just say'n.
11-05-2011, 12:53 AM
#161
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Marketing genius at work lol. Kool aid. Keg for you. 
You don't sound defensive. No problem AFAIC. What you did say in post #113 was, ".......all point towards one genius of a... brand marketing machine. This is what Porsche does best head-and-shoulders above everyone else. This is their genius." Maybe you didn't specifically say marketing was their only genius, but I think you can understand why you might have left the impression that it was their primary one.
Now you're not going to say later that you didn't really mean to put down Rennsport IV as a marketing event, are you? I guarantee you that the 400 owners who brought their race cars to Rennsport, not to mention the 1300 Porsches parked in the corral weren't there because of marketing. It's PCA and Porsche owners that organize, volunteer and make things like Rennsport happen. Porsche is more than happy to go along for the ride, no question, but it's not marketing that is the impetus behind these events.
Sorry, won't be sending you my copy. No disrespect, but it doesn't sound like you'd be particularly interested anyway as it's not a "popular read" kind of book. It goes into depth on every engine, suspension, transmission, brake, what-have-you upgrade for every model since Porsche #1, including race cars. Histories of drivers, engineers, and, yes, marketing strategies. It's not fun/entertaining, per se, but more for the SAE types and people who want to know the geneology of their Porsches. My point in mentioning it was in response to comments that engineering was not really big at Porsche; this book proves that concept wrong.
I'm not afraid to say that Porsche is, for me, the best sports car. I'm not saying there aren't other interesting cars or even other cars that I wouldn't mind owning, but none instead of a 911. In a way, I guess that does mean Porsche "over all". Seems obvious, really, since I could have bought any of the others you mention, and didn't. I will say this. Hold an event for Mustangs, Corvettes, BMW's, etc at a place like Laguna Seca in October. Would anything close to the variety and number of cars and owners show up as showed up for Rennsport?? I don't think so. There's a reason for that.......
Now you're not going to say later that you didn't really mean to put down Rennsport IV as a marketing event, are you? I guarantee you that the 400 owners who brought their race cars to Rennsport, not to mention the 1300 Porsches parked in the corral weren't there because of marketing. It's PCA and Porsche owners that organize, volunteer and make things like Rennsport happen. Porsche is more than happy to go along for the ride, no question, but it's not marketing that is the impetus behind these events.
Sorry, won't be sending you my copy. No disrespect, but it doesn't sound like you'd be particularly interested anyway as it's not a "popular read" kind of book. It goes into depth on every engine, suspension, transmission, brake, what-have-you upgrade for every model since Porsche #1, including race cars. Histories of drivers, engineers, and, yes, marketing strategies. It's not fun/entertaining, per se, but more for the SAE types and people who want to know the geneology of their Porsches. My point in mentioning it was in response to comments that engineering was not really big at Porsche; this book proves that concept wrong.
I'm not afraid to say that Porsche is, for me, the best sports car. I'm not saying there aren't other interesting cars or even other cars that I wouldn't mind owning, but none instead of a 911. In a way, I guess that does mean Porsche "over all". Seems obvious, really, since I could have bought any of the others you mention, and didn't. I will say this. Hold an event for Mustangs, Corvettes, BMW's, etc at a place like Laguna Seca in October. Would anything close to the variety and number of cars and owners show up as showed up for Rennsport?? I don't think so. There's a reason for that.......
11-05-2011, 06:46 AM
#163
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I'm not afraid to say that Porsche is, for me, the best sports car. I'm not saying there aren't other interesting cars or even other cars that I wouldn't mind owning, but none instead of a 911. In a way, I guess that does mean Porsche "over all". Seems obvious, really, since I could have bought any of the others you mention, and didn't.
As for
and once again, I'm not saying 997s exhibit excessive oil burning. I would need to see statistics before I would. I'm saying that when a company says 1qt/368 miles is acceptable, they are worried more about profits than customer loyalty.
A 997 that DID consume 1qt/368 miles would not perform.
A 997 that DID consume 1qt/368 miles would not perform.
You just do. It's acceptable. Live with it. Or buy a Vanagon.
Gary
11-05-2011, 11:46 AM
#164
Nordschleife Master
Whatever man, you can say all you want, there is significantly more owners with excessive oil consumption in 997.2 than 997.1....
shall we assume you have something approaching data to prove this, or do you just "know"?
Similarly to how IMS failures in 2005 cars are reported here and YOU agree that's an issue, there are reports of incredible oil consumption on some DFI engines, and THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE! You just are afraid yours might end up one of those.
The facts remain. It doesn't mean DFI is a bad engine or what not, it means PORSCHE does NOT take care of their customers when they should and that is was OP was frustrated with.
shall we assume you have something approaching data to prove this, or do you just "know"?
Similarly to how IMS failures in 2005 cars are reported here and YOU agree that's an issue, there are reports of incredible oil consumption on some DFI engines, and THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE! You just are afraid yours might end up one of those.
The facts remain. It doesn't mean DFI is a bad engine or what not, it means PORSCHE does NOT take care of their customers when they should and that is was OP was frustrated with.
11-06-2011, 09:28 AM
#165
Nordschleife Master
I've added 1/2 qt in 2400 miles in the GTS. Each Carrera I've had I've had to top off from Time to time. I'm not an engineer but don't all internal combustion engines consume oil? Aren't boxer type engines naturally prone to oil consumption?
Adding a little oil now and then never detracted from the enjoyment of owning and driving a great car. Was it supposed to?
If it was I've got to yank that 427 out of my Shelby. Damn.
Adding a little oil now and then never detracted from the enjoyment of owning and driving a great car. Was it supposed to?
If it was I've got to yank that 427 out of my Shelby. Damn.