Dang! Porsche 918 Spyder to be previewed March 2.
03-02-2010, 10:07 PM
#46
Burning Brakes
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Wasn't there something about the Porsche getting better mpg than the Prius at greater prolonged speed? Besides the Porsche can actually stop. Seriously though, don't hybrid engins allow for great torque? Porsche has always been evolutionary. I'm willing to embrace where Porsche goes with a few exceptions.
03-02-2010, 10:44 PM
#47
Nordschleife Master
Given that choice, I might pick the same as you. But you've invented a comparison and picked numbers to favor your argument. 
So let's adjust the numbers based on what Porsche says they've actually done with the 918. The 918 is 240 lbs heavier than the Carrera GT, with a total output of 718hp, or about 20% more than a GT. So let's extrapolate; a 20% horsepower advantage to the Hybrid 911, with the smaller less powerful hybrid package coming in at, say, around 150 pounds more. Now your choice is between these 2 911's:
ICE: 400HP 3200lb 26MPG
Hybrid: 480HP 3350lb 40mpg
Might make the choice a little more difficult, don't you think?
So let's adjust the numbers based on what Porsche says they've actually done with the 918. The 918 is 240 lbs heavier than the Carrera GT, with a total output of 718hp, or about 20% more than a GT. So let's extrapolate; a 20% horsepower advantage to the Hybrid 911, with the smaller less powerful hybrid package coming in at, say, around 150 pounds more. Now your choice is between these 2 911's:ICE: 400HP 3200lb 26MPG
Hybrid: 480HP 3350lb 40mpg
Might make the choice a little more difficult, don't you think?
03-02-2010, 11:17 PM
#48
Race Director
Thought you had PDK. Doesn't it weigh 66lbs more than a 6 speed? So sometimes new technology is worth the added mass, no? More weight might not necessarily be all that bad anyway, if it meant an electric motor up front providing all-wheel drive and and a slightly smaller ICE with intelligent placement of the battery pack to improve weight distribution. Straight line performance AND handling might be improved. I know, you prefer the ICE alone; I'm just saying.... 
So sometimes new technology is worth the added mass, no? More weight might not necessarily be all that bad anyway, if it meant an electric motor up front providing all-wheel drive and and a slightly smaller ICE with intelligent placement of the battery pack to improve weight distribution. Straight line performance AND handling might be improved. I know, you prefer the ICE alone; I'm just saying....
03-02-2010, 11:35 PM
#49
Nordschleife Master
Mike: My PDK choice has a 66lb penalty that I offset with no-Bose and manual seats (chosen to offset mass not $$). PDK is a driving style choice, not a power-train choice.
You know it and I know it - auto manufacturers are pushing the hybrid model to appease the eco crowd. There's no economy in it. What you save in gas you more than spend up front.
I understand an electrical power-train in all its variations. I am not pushing e-power because gas ICE engines are still better today and make better economical sense. Unless an instant charge, reliable, capacitor-type storage is developed, I do not see e-cars based on chemical batteries - too heavy, too slow-charging, low reliability. I view tech for its real value, not for tech's sake or misplaced eco choices.
You know it and I know it - auto manufacturers are pushing the hybrid model to appease the eco crowd. There's no economy in it. What you save in gas you more than spend up front.
I understand an electrical power-train in all its variations. I am not pushing e-power because gas ICE engines are still better today and make better economical sense. Unless an instant charge, reliable, capacitor-type storage is developed, I do not see e-cars based on chemical batteries - too heavy, too slow-charging, low reliability. I view tech for its real value, not for tech's sake or misplaced eco choices.
Last edited by ADias; 03-03-2010 at 12:30 AM.
03-03-2010, 12:05 AM
#50
http://www.uncrate.com/men/cars/conc...he-918-spyder/
heres a little info on the 918... really does look like the front of a f430
heres a little info on the 918... really does look like the front of a f430
03-03-2010, 01:21 AM
#51
Race Director
ADias, I was responding to your statement that "you always go for less weight". I chose sport buckets in part for the same reason you chose manual seats; to offset the weight of PDK. But bottom line, we both could have saved an additional 66lbs by going with a manual. So any way you slice it there was a weight penalty that we were willing to accept to achieve some other goal.
I don't disagree about the up front costs for hybrids, but as technology improves and volumes increase the comparative numbers are getting better. For example, it takes only 1.4 years to recover the cost of the Toyota Camary hybrid over it's regular counterpart. Other hybrids, to your point, take much longer.
So yeah, manufacturers are catering to the "eco crowd". So what? Aren't those companies satisfying a market niche just like Porsche fills a niche for people who want fast, beautiful cars? Surely you're not arguing the cost efficiency or social benefit of high end sports cars. If a consumer is willing to spend extra for a car that gets 40+ MPG why should anyone else give a damn? I don't see someone willing to paying more to use less fuel as a negative, any more than it's a negative to spend extra to buy a car that will do 190mph. In either case, who cares what the buyers motives are? At least the eco folks will have the satisfaction of actually experiencing their 40mpg; most of us will never see 190mph in our cars. Regardless of how much oil there is, I can't see why it's bad to use less of it.
Clearly this isn't just about regulation; many people are actually demanding and willing to pay for more efficient vehicles. Why shouldn't car makers build and sell them? If it gets to a point where this trend leads to fewer, less entertaining choices, I'm with you. But after watching the intro of the Hybrid Cayenne, Hybrid GT3 RS, and 918, I'm encouraged that Porsche, for one, won't let that happen.
I don't disagree about the up front costs for hybrids, but as technology improves and volumes increase the comparative numbers are getting better. For example, it takes only 1.4 years to recover the cost of the Toyota Camary hybrid over it's regular counterpart. Other hybrids, to your point, take much longer.
So yeah, manufacturers are catering to the "eco crowd". So what? Aren't those companies satisfying a market niche just like Porsche fills a niche for people who want fast, beautiful cars? Surely you're not arguing the cost efficiency or social benefit of high end sports cars. If a consumer is willing to spend extra for a car that gets 40+ MPG why should anyone else give a damn? I don't see someone willing to paying more to use less fuel as a negative, any more than it's a negative to spend extra to buy a car that will do 190mph. In either case, who cares what the buyers motives are? At least the eco folks will have the satisfaction of actually experiencing their 40mpg; most of us will never see 190mph in our cars. Regardless of how much oil there is, I can't see why it's bad to use less of it.
Clearly this isn't just about regulation; many people are actually demanding and willing to pay for more efficient vehicles. Why shouldn't car makers build and sell them? If it gets to a point where this trend leads to fewer, less entertaining choices, I'm with you. But after watching the intro of the Hybrid Cayenne, Hybrid GT3 RS, and 918, I'm encouraged that Porsche, for one, won't let that happen.
03-03-2010, 05:57 AM
#53
The overall shape and style is nice. But I agree that the concept is a bit over done with too many messy details. Hopefully the production model will be cleaner. Regardless, I like it. The 917 is one of my favorite classic Porsches, so I really enjoy seeing the some of that DNA in the 918 Spyder.
It will no doubt be a Carrera GT successor, not a next gen Boxster. Yet another dream car to add to my collection of dreams.
It will no doubt be a Carrera GT successor, not a next gen Boxster. Yet another dream car to add to my collection of dreams.
03-04-2010, 12:01 AM
#54
Track Day
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Did anyone else notice that it doesn't have conventional side view mirrors? I know Porsche has been talking about replacing mirrors with some sort of camera system for a while and it kind of looks like that may be what is implemented here. That said, I have no idea where the displays are . . .
03-04-2010, 01:30 PM
#56
human element of smog...
I believe someone here said that smog has always existed naturally. Maybe some of that is true but I can tell you that when I was growing up in Athens, Greece, before they stopped leaded gas, there was always a thick, gray cloud over the city and when you went downtown, you'd come home with your eyes messed up. I remember blowing my nose and getting a bunch of black stuff coming out (similar to what you get when going to a shooting range).
After they stopped leaded gasoline and created a better highway system, added a metro system, and expanded the city, the atmosphere is visibly improved. The air is much cleaner now.
Car exhaust does contribute to poor air quality...
Having said all that, if politicians and the government were really interested in the environment, they'd stop producing SUV's. Leave the 911 alone and go after the real offenders!!! But this all has nothing to do with safety and air quality. It's all very money driven.
If there's money in hybrids/green, then we'll see a lot more of it whether we, as car enthusiasts, like it or not...
-T
After they stopped leaded gasoline and created a better highway system, added a metro system, and expanded the city, the atmosphere is visibly improved. The air is much cleaner now.
Car exhaust does contribute to poor air quality...
Having said all that, if politicians and the government were really interested in the environment, they'd stop producing SUV's. Leave the 911 alone and go after the real offenders!!! But this all has nothing to do with safety and air quality. It's all very money driven.
If there's money in hybrids/green, then we'll see a lot more of it whether we, as car enthusiasts, like it or not...
-T
03-04-2010, 08:42 PM
#58
Drifting
