First Oil Change...Early is Better?
11-28-2009, 04:35 PM
#16
Poseur
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Change the oil/filter. Pour oil from oil filter housing into clean drain pan. Take pics.
As I've mentioned I changed the oil/filter in my new 08 Cayman S at 750 miles. Oil had a metallic sheen from tiny metal particles in oil. See pic. I can send you high res pics privately if you supply an email address.
Sure, filter caught them, they were after all in the oil filter housing, not in the oil drained from the oil sump.
However, upon cold start and at other times of high oil pressure oil is routed past the oil filter and fed unfiltered directly to the engine.
And if the oil remains in the engine too long -- which may be less than the recommended oil change interval -- the filter will become full and unable to pass enough oil. The oil bypass valve will open and then engine is running on unfiltered oil.
New engines shed debris. This is a fact of life. As a machinist I experienced first hand just how much material a freshly machined or cast or forged parts and their surfaces would shed in the way of metal debris. This is natural and will over time of course subside down to nearly nothing. But the shedding is very high in a new engine and continues for some time.
Besides shedding debris new engines experience higher amounts of blow by and as a result new engines contaminate their oil at a much higher rate than a mature engine. This contamination puts more water and unburned gas in the oil, which lowers its viscosity and reduces the oil's ability to protect against metal to metal contact of engine parts. New engines have much higher levels of internal friction and need all the help they can get in this regard.
An initial extended oil/filter change interval ensures they won't get all the help they need.
Back to my Cayman S: I note that I changed the oil again at 1350 miles and the metal debris load was very very little, not enough to even show up in a photograph. I had the oil changed again at 2000 miles at end of break end prior to a planned week's long road trip.
My advice is unless strictly prohibited by owners manual is to change a new engine's oil/filter early and again at end of break in.
Most if not all car makers do not advise an early oil change. Not because it is not a good thing, but because they are all sensitive to the cost of the new cars and want to avoid sending a new owner back to the dealer for an early service at the new owners expense. The "free" service offers by some car makers for new cars is an extension of this desire to make a new car's higher price more tolerable.
BTW, this lack of early service comes in for *praise* by the auto mag writers who feel any service a negative. However, they are not owners and not faced with living the car beyond a year and 10K to 20K miles they have the car in their possession to write about.
Sincerely,
Macster.
As I've mentioned I changed the oil/filter in my new 08 Cayman S at 750 miles. Oil had a metallic sheen from tiny metal particles in oil. See pic. I can send you high res pics privately if you supply an email address.
Sure, filter caught them, they were after all in the oil filter housing, not in the oil drained from the oil sump.
However, upon cold start and at other times of high oil pressure oil is routed past the oil filter and fed unfiltered directly to the engine.
And if the oil remains in the engine too long -- which may be less than the recommended oil change interval -- the filter will become full and unable to pass enough oil. The oil bypass valve will open and then engine is running on unfiltered oil.
New engines shed debris. This is a fact of life. As a machinist I experienced first hand just how much material a freshly machined or cast or forged parts and their surfaces would shed in the way of metal debris. This is natural and will over time of course subside down to nearly nothing. But the shedding is very high in a new engine and continues for some time.
Besides shedding debris new engines experience higher amounts of blow by and as a result new engines contaminate their oil at a much higher rate than a mature engine. This contamination puts more water and unburned gas in the oil, which lowers its viscosity and reduces the oil's ability to protect against metal to metal contact of engine parts. New engines have much higher levels of internal friction and need all the help they can get in this regard.
An initial extended oil/filter change interval ensures they won't get all the help they need.
Back to my Cayman S: I note that I changed the oil again at 1350 miles and the metal debris load was very very little, not enough to even show up in a photograph. I had the oil changed again at 2000 miles at end of break end prior to a planned week's long road trip.
My advice is unless strictly prohibited by owners manual is to change a new engine's oil/filter early and again at end of break in.
Most if not all car makers do not advise an early oil change. Not because it is not a good thing, but because they are all sensitive to the cost of the new cars and want to avoid sending a new owner back to the dealer for an early service at the new owners expense. The "free" service offers by some car makers for new cars is an extension of this desire to make a new car's higher price more tolerable.
BTW, this lack of early service comes in for *praise* by the auto mag writers who feel any service a negative. However, they are not owners and not faced with living the car beyond a year and 10K to 20K miles they have the car in their possession to write about.
Sincerely,
Macster.
I consider this extremist thought. If you have so much crap floating around inside your engine from when it was manufactured, PORSCHE will be buying you a new engine.
11-28-2009, 04:46 PM
#17
I think much of the issue is about the mechanical condition of the engine when it has very high mileage. Think about it. If you never changed the oil in a car and/or abused it when it was stone-dead-cold, it will not fail, mechanically, during the warrantee period. It may very well have a significant impact on the condition of the engine when/if it has 100,000 or 200,000 miles on it.
11-28-2009, 05:03 PM
#18
Race Director
When I took car into dealership to have its oil changed at end of break in -- I didn't have the time to do it myself -- I asked the tech about the condition of the oil and filter. Even showed him pictures. Pic of filter and housing below.
He said filter housing condition -- lots of nasty looking white junk on housing threads and even a drop or two of water -- common with new engines. Said the factory lubes the filter housing threads and o-ring with grease -- probably the white stuff -- cause the car can sit a long time and run even longer before 1st oil and filter service.
However, when I showed him pictures of the contents of the oil he said he never bothered to look at the oil from teh filter housing. Says he just dumps the housing upside down and lets the oil drain and retrieves teh filter and tosses it in recycle can.
So how would Porsche even know the stuff was there? Tech doesn't even bother to look and I bet he's not alone and I can't say I blame him any cause Porsche doesn't include time to inspect oil/filter and oil filter oil contents in book time of oil/filter service.
Obviously, Porsche not going to worry about oil contents and engine until car comes in with engine making horrible sounds.
The only way Porsche would buy me a new engine would be if engine developed a serious problem while under warranty. Trouble is it might not develop a serious problem until after warranty. Not all serious engine problems develop during warranty as we have read over and over again here and on other Porsche boards.
If engine develops serious problem after warranty then it is my problem.
Since I tend to keep my cars a long time and put lots of miles on them I want a reliable car and reliable and fine running engine for longer than just a few tens of thousands of miles.
BTW, the oil's condition is not extreme. The metal debris was very fine. I dipped my gloved fingers into the oil and couldn't even feel the metal between my fingers.
And I expected to see some metallic debris in the oil. I know from some engine rebuilding I did some years back new engines just shed alot of metal debris. Even though parts are cleaned and lint free towels used to wipe off engine parts newly rebuilt engines just shed a lot of trash. And the same goes for new engines.
Also engine in break in phase. Break in is wear. Wear means metal is removed from sliding/rotating bearing surfaces. This metal can only end up in the oil and if we're lucky in the filter.
My engine rebuilder advisor always suggested I run a newly rebuilt engine for 30 minutes or so at fast idle then shut off engine drain oil remove filter, replace both with new, then drive car for a few hundred miles then repeat the oil/filter service then follow regular oil/filter service schedule.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Last edited by Macster; 04-03-2010 at 09:55 PM.
11-28-2009, 07:38 PM
#20
Race Director
If you don't plan on owning car out of warranty and driving it many miles treat car any way you want.
When time to sell up to you to convince possible buyer the absence of an early service and perhaps even regular servicing not a bad thing.
Based on the posts here I'd say you have a large market into which to sell so this shouldn't present a problem.
If you trade car in then even that's not a real problem though dealer could treat lack of regular servicing as abuse and lower trade in allowance for your car.
I own my cars in and out of warranty. I generally keep them 5 to 10 years and drive then alot. I just feel better knowing from the outset I've done what I can to ensure the engine a long and problem free existence.
Sincerely,
Macster.
11-28-2009, 07:38 PM
#21
Poseur
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
If the way Porsche (OEM) builds these engines results in a lot of crap winding up in the oil and oil filter that leads to a shortened engine life, Porsche would be VERY concerned. They're not, because you don't need to be.
I concur that on a new engine REBUILD, you put in a load of oil, run the engine for 15-30 minutes and then dump it and put in fresh. But that's entirely different.
I keep my Porsches longer than anyone else on Rennlist (in the 997 forum).
The photo showing the oil filter cannister could not have been from factory workmanship. They don't resort to lithium grease or anything else on the threads of that plastic filter housing. Someone other than Zuffenhausen did that.
I concur that on a new engine REBUILD, you put in a load of oil, run the engine for 15-30 minutes and then dump it and put in fresh. But that's entirely different.
I keep my Porsches longer than anyone else on Rennlist (in the 997 forum).
The photo showing the oil filter cannister could not have been from factory workmanship. They don't resort to lithium grease or anything else on the threads of that plastic filter housing. Someone other than Zuffenhausen did that.
11-28-2009, 07:54 PM
#23
Race Director
If the way Porsche (OEM) builds these engines results in a lot of crap winding up in the oil and oil filter that leads to a shortened engine life, Porsche would be VERY concerned. They're not, because you don't need to be.
I concur that on a new engine REBUILD, you put in a load of oil, run the engine for 15-30 minutes and then dump it and put in fresh. But that's entirely different.
I keep my Porsches longer than anyone else on Rennlist (in the 997 forum).
I concur that on a new engine REBUILD, you put in a load of oil, run the engine for 15-30 minutes and then dump it and put in fresh. But that's entirely different.
I keep my Porsches longer than anyone else on Rennlist (in the 997 forum).
Also, I note we in the USA are a bit blessed cause these cars come with 4 year, 50K mile warranties. Owners in other countries not so lucky though.
Porsche knows most owners don't drive cars enough to even bring out inherent problems.
In the used Porsche market Porsche gets enough buyers to opt for the extended warranty or CPO warranty which still makes money for its dealers and Porsche.
The few owners outside of any warranty are just SOL if something goes wrong and in fact if it does this just provides reinforcement to the many who shout out "don't own a Porsche outside of a warranty".
This has several advantages. It encourages new car owners to turn cars over more often, at end of the warranty period, or to add an extended warranty that is just money in the bank for who ever sells the warranty since most cars leave warranty on time and not on miles driven. Generally problems appear from miles driven, not time spent sitting in driveway.
Also, it drives used Porsche shoppers away from privately owned cars out of warranty to dealers with CPO cars or to dealers who can offer 3rd party warranties (like my selling dealer offered me).
Sincerely,
Macster.
11-28-2009, 09:10 PM
#24
Banned
Maybe. Maybe not.
If you don't plan on owning car out of warranty and driving it many miles treat car any way you want.
When time to sell up to you to convince possible buyer the absence of an early service and perhaps even regular servicing not a bad thing.
Based on the posts here I'd say you have a large market into which to sell so this shouldn't present a problem.
If you trade car in then even that's not a real problem though dealer could treat lack of regular servicing as abuse and lower trade in allowance for your car.
I own my cars in and out of warranty. I generally keep them 5 to 10 years and drive then alot. I just feel better knowing from the outset I've done what I can to ensure the engine a long and problem free existence.
Sincerely,
Macster.
If you don't plan on owning car out of warranty and driving it many miles treat car any way you want.
When time to sell up to you to convince possible buyer the absence of an early service and perhaps even regular servicing not a bad thing.
Based on the posts here I'd say you have a large market into which to sell so this shouldn't present a problem.
If you trade car in then even that's not a real problem though dealer could treat lack of regular servicing as abuse and lower trade in allowance for your car.
I own my cars in and out of warranty. I generally keep them 5 to 10 years and drive then alot. I just feel better knowing from the outset I've done what I can to ensure the engine a long and problem free existence.
Sincerely,
Macster.
You don't need a salutation, a body, a complementary close, and a signature block with each post.
Last edited by OCBen; 11-28-2009 at 09:41 PM. Reason: typo
11-28-2009, 09:37 PM
#25
Banned
Join Date: May 2008
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On all my new cars, I always do the first oil change at about the 1,000 mile mark. After that, yearly, or at about the 7,500 mile mark. Prior to the oil change, I run a full tank of fuel with Techron.
I never need to add oil between changes.
I never need to add oil between changes.
11-28-2009, 09:41 PM
#26
Maybe. Maybe not.
If you don't plan on owning car out of warranty and driving it many miles treat car any way you want.
When time to sell up to you to convince possible buyer the absence of an early service and perhaps even regular servicing not a bad thing.
Based on the posts here I'd say you have a large market into which to sell so this shouldn't present a problem.
If you trade car in then even that's not a real problem though dealer could treat lack of regular servicing as abuse and lower trade in allowance for your car.
I own my cars in and out of warranty. I generally keep them 5 to 10 years and drive then alot. I just feel better knowing from the outset I've done what I can to ensure the engine a long and problem free existence.
Sincerely,
Macster.
If you don't plan on owning car out of warranty and driving it many miles treat car any way you want.
When time to sell up to you to convince possible buyer the absence of an early service and perhaps even regular servicing not a bad thing.
Based on the posts here I'd say you have a large market into which to sell so this shouldn't present a problem.
If you trade car in then even that's not a real problem though dealer could treat lack of regular servicing as abuse and lower trade in allowance for your car.
I own my cars in and out of warranty. I generally keep them 5 to 10 years and drive then alot. I just feel better knowing from the outset I've done what I can to ensure the engine a long and problem free existence.
Sincerely,
Macster.
If tiny metal particles are an issue I would like to know why no one is recommendaing transmission fluid changes at 1000 miles as well. That the transmnission fluid is not contaminated by fuel or water is not really the issue inasmuch as we are talking about metal debris here.
11-29-2009, 01:42 AM
#28
I place very little faith in the brilliance of Porsche factory engineering. Almost every 911 engine has had serious problems -- from the pulled head studs of the 2.7's to the early valve guide wear of the 993's and the RMS/cylinder wall problems of the 996's. I also don't think that factory service recommendations have much relationship to keeping your car in its best mechanical health (as opposed to reducing the warranty work of dealerships). The recommended 993 oil change interval is 10,000 miles, which is far too long. And the factory set up the 993 engines to run about 40 degrees hotter than they should, for emissions reasons.
I don't know whether you should change a 997's oil after 800 miles or whatever, but I do know that factory recommendations are not the Ten Commandments.
I don't know whether you should change a 997's oil after 800 miles or whatever, but I do know that factory recommendations are not the Ten Commandments.
11-29-2009, 07:17 PM
#29
Race Director
Oh I'm not recommending ignoring factory recommendations. But their recommendations don't include an oil change at 1000 miles.
If tiny metal particles are an issue I would like to know why no one is recommendaing transmission fluid changes at 1000 miles as well. That the transmnission fluid is not contaminated by fuel or water is not really the issue inasmuch as we are talking about metal debris here.
If tiny metal particles are an issue I would like to know why no one is recommendaing transmission fluid changes at 1000 miles as well. That the transmnission fluid is not contaminated by fuel or water is not really the issue inasmuch as we are talking about metal debris here.
Manual transmissions a bit different. Most manual transmissions do not have oil pumps and rely upon splash to lube things. Generally what ends up in bottom of transmission housing stays there. First drain though can result in a bit of scary metal bits that a shop can use to scare an owner into a tranny rebuild. If I had a tranny rebuilt evertime someone came up and showed me some stuff that came out of the transmission drain fluid...
I had planned on having transmission diff fluid changed in my Cayman S after a road trip at around 6K miles. (Had new 06 GTO transmission/diff fluid changed at 15K miles, which IIRC used to be GM's recommend 1st change interval years ago.)
If I bought a new Tip equipped car or a new car with PDK you can bet it would get an early fluid change, probably at end of break in period.
I treated my "new" (used) Turbo (03 with 9500 miles when I bought it) to a front diff fluid change at 10K miles and the 6-speed transmission and rear diff fluid should have been changed but dealership service department claimed to have misunderstood my request and only changed the front diff fluid. I'll never use this dealership for any car purchases or car service needs again. Intend to have the tranny/rear diff fluid changed sometime this month at local Porsche dealership here in town.
Turbo has also had brake fluid flush/bleed and coolant replaced. (This last needed when radiator busted from deer hit, but I would have had it done anyhow.)
Sincerely,
Macster.
11-29-2009, 07:46 PM
#30
Poseur
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Everyone is entitled to spend as much as they wish on fluid replacements. At a certain point it gains you nothing. It's just a waste of money, and an increased environmental burden for all.
Do what you want to do--but just understand that not everyone believes in overkill. Everyone has to do their own CBA--Cost Benefit Analysis. What does changing all that stuff so often get you? Secondly, how do you really know?
Macster--also, you never answered my earlier question to you. Where did all that gunk come from on he oil cartridge housing threads?
Do what you want to do--but just understand that not everyone believes in overkill. Everyone has to do their own CBA--Cost Benefit Analysis. What does changing all that stuff so often get you? Secondly, how do you really know?
Macster--also, you never answered my earlier question to you. Where did all that gunk come from on he oil cartridge housing threads?