Carrera GT

Let me get this straight: your total operating cost (including the event fee, wear and tear, depreciation, consumables, gas, tires, brakes, fluids and food) for one day at the track is somewhere between $90 ($1795/20) and $115 ($3495/30) ? Seriously? That would mean your DE is actually a matter of sneaking onto the track after hours with a bicycle. : )

http://www.porschedriving.com/Course...--Pricing.aspx

Precision - (One-Day High Performance Driving Course): $1,795
Masters - (Two-Day Advanced Driving Course): $3,495
Masters Plus - Race License - (Three-Day Competition Driving Course): $5,295


If you really have to make a dollar for dollar comparison, add in at least two full hours on the track with an instructor in the car or on the radio. I believe I can get a competent pro to the track for about $1000. Get three friends and have the pro (assuming (s)he's reasonably articulate and working from a curriculum with printed course materials and videos) share time between each of you. Don't forget to feed the instructor and maybe cover their out-of-pocket, travel or even accommodation if the track isn't close by. Still, you won't get debriefs from ten instructors standing at each turn on the course. Or in-car video and data-acquisition unless you buy $1K+ of gear, so amortize that over the given 20 or 30 events. Maybe the pro will have real world data comparison of your best laps with a reference lap. How about debriefs and coaching at the evening meal in a decent restaurant (included in the cost) ... hell, the more I remind myself, the more I "sell" myself on repeating the three-day course and leave my 911 safely in the garage!

And don't forget the safety factor of a closed circuit with no yahoo's or crazies in random cars with random levels of maintenance and random levels of self-preservation in the minds of the other drivers at a typical DE track day. Everyone being on the same page, everyone under close supervision, everyone in new model Carreras that have just been checked by a mechanic literally between sessions for tires and brakes -- one of my biggest concerns at the track these days is not me or my car, it's the imbecile in the red mist taking me out or putting me in a lifeflight helicopter or even just doing $3K in bumper damage with no insurance. By the way, PSDS can add a damage waiver for a few dollars more.

The more detail I put into the comparison, the better PSDS compares. And the real value is the calibre of the instructors and the whole facility. At a DE, do you get skid-pad instruction or heal-toe or weight-management, trail-braking or even autocross technique? Do you get sit-down time with pro's to talk about psychology? (Which is arguably one of the most important factors in transitioning from a hot-lap junkie to someone learning and refining skills and techniques.) And the three-day course includes the class-room work and the skills instruction to receive an SCCA race license. What does it cost to go to the cheapest DE school and get a race license?

Maybe I shouldn't hit send on this post because Porsche will up their prices! : )

ps. I talked myself into it! I'm going to do the three day race license course again ... time to put my money where my keyboard is!

brendo

FWIW, porsche claims they break even at 20 students in the class - this suggestion has been disputed by others on this board but i've been told that by most instructors down there.

CMOS

That's interesting. What's that waiver about? Is that some sort of extra insurance that covers damage I might do a car I'm driving if I screw up on the track?

MJones

Waiver is pretty cheap!
I have witnessed 3 pretty good "OFF'S" at PSDS. They do happen tho rarely.
Wheels off coupled with inattention is not pretty.

russo

In response to Carrera GT. At PSDS you have to factor in Hotel, airfare, food and other expenses. If you tell me that you would rather use their cars and not yours, I agree, PSDS is a good choice, the instruction is top notch, the track is world class. In my region, the cost of each event is $110 to 175 per day; thus let take the higher figure of 175 x 20= 3500, that is still below what the basic course comes out to when you factor other associated expenses. 20 DE's of actual seat time will not equal one weekend at PSDS. Going to the racing course is an entirely different matter, I have no idea why you bring that up since its so different than the basic course or a DE event. Regardless, you can get all the instruction you want but actual practice is what makes the difference. Like I said, I did the PSDS and aside from the fact that I used their basic Carrera and a few laps in an S with PDK, I was stuck at driving at 5/10's. My point is seat time cannot be substituted for a weekend course, regardless of how good the instruction is. Let me re-emphasize, PSDS is an excellent venue for a driver with little to no track experience, but you cannot tell me that a track rat running in an advanced group will gain any profound knowledge or skills that will justify the cost.

red89

Seems like after a couple times, it's just a bunch of elbow rubbing.

PogueMoHone

^

In the "quest" for competence how many laps is enough?

cello

^ russo you make good points. However, even Tiger Woods has a swing coach.

From the guys I talked to when I did my event, some of the very experienced drivers felt held back in the open tracking phase - not necessarily by the Instructors, etc., but by the level of drivers on the track. Bottom line: you do run with people that have had little experience and aren't the quickest at point-bys (or turn signal-bys, more accurately). And you have to watch for same - on one occasion I was setting up a pass of an S thru the esses when he braked right in the middle of the same, causing me to lift and to brake, .... as gently as possible ..., but still causing a pucker moment when my car's balance was unsettled. I will also say that I and another guy (who does 60+ track days a year) were black-flagged and gently told to stay off the curbing in the esses. We two were paired up and had had 1 instructor for the prior follow-leads (somewhat unusual, most groups were 4 or more) and were taking the same line we did with the Instructor - who was taking us around quite quickly (because we could keep up; ie they do try to tailor the class to driving level to the extent they can practicably).

So, the first two PSDS classes are not racing courses but are 'driving schools'. That said, I believe that even "a track rat running in an advanced group" will gain both knowledge and skills, even if it is a step back from 8/10s driving, because the focus is on teaching .. and not on the 'event' as usually occurs at the typical DE. Re the teaching focus: A good example is the skid pad exercises - No matter your level of experience, the focus on smooth/progressive throttle/braking input will pay dividends. Same with the AutoX - simply having the time to work on accurate car balance and trail braking under the gun of the clock will increase skills (albeit possibly dormant or stale already known skills).

I think the thing that is missed in this debate is the fact that one can completely 'focus' on improving ones driving skills at the PSDS, as that is its sole purpose. At DEs, it has been my experience that the lower groups have a lot of down time (sometimes filled w/ volunteering, etc) and don't know what to do with it; while the upper level drivers are running about with their chokes out, so to speak, instructing, volunteering, working on their cars (or friends' cars ), and don't have much time for focusing on the driving (other than when in the car of course) until that night or they get to their data/vids etc.

As to cost, uninterrupted time to focus and work on the basics that makes one fast (and safe), in my mind, and for my busy lifestyle, has value - a lot of it. But each must make that decision independently; and if you disagree, i will not say you are wrong.

cfjan

I think Carrera GT's point about cost was that in order to compare apple to apple, you need to factor in the cost of brake pads, tires, gas, wear and tears on your own car, depreciation, etc. which can be up to $1,000 / day on average (of course, it heavily depends on what tires are used, how aggressive the driver's is on the brake, etc.)

PogueMoHone

^

Carrera GT is a track rat, and then some (imo)!

PSDS will challenge the most accomplished driver, if they approach it with the right perspective; and communicate with authority and expertise their level of capability.

The guy who has driven the perfect lap is the only guy who will eschew the program.

To answer my own question about how many laps are enough?

For me the answer is:- one more!

Carrera GT

I think you made a silly exaggeration in suggesting that one course of PSDS would afford a driver 20 days at a DE. Why you persist in these mistaken math expeditions, I dunno, but let's just agree to disagree on DE costs. : )

I'm glad you've done PSDS and I trust you enjoyed the experience. If you were driving at 5/10ths for anything other than the deliberately controlled sessions (if you did overtaking or threshold braking or lift-off weight transition for example) then you wasted your opportunity and there's just no way the event was holding you to drive at half pace. Schumi could not survive the first session of the first day of the Masters course driving at 5/10ths. He'd have to a least ratchet it up to 6/10ths.

Carrera GT

Thanks for putting that vid together Jonesy. I'd forgotten about the Turbos. Maybe doing the 3-day when they have the PDK Turbo will be worth it -- do you happen to know when they'll have them?

PogueMoHone

^
Hey you want to "rub shoulders" in Oct/Dec.

You know I am a "celebrity" (and nearly a "legend") and I will sign autographs since I appreciate those who follow their passion. Just don't drive as I drive, drive as I say.... don't lift, ever!

By special request Mjones has also agreed to "rub shoulders" and sign autographs as well.

Rumor has it that the "Legends" want to rub shoulders and have our autographs too!

For those of you who might have missed the humor..'tis all in good natured jest!

Carrera GT

Agreed. This is a problem that crops up during the 3-day when everyone should be approaching the level of getting an amateur license and you wonder why they're there at all. I think anyone who tracks more than say ten days a year has struggled with this impossible problem of people that just won't cooperate on the track.I know that section of the track and it is the only part of the track where things are a bit quick and could turn ugly quickly with only grass to send you over the short run-off into the guard rail. A bad idea to "load up" on the tail of the slower car, especially with the esses and the long run of straight track to get the point-by down the left. But I know the frustration of being in a "slow-mentum" car behind a point-and-squirt-with-blinkers driver.This is two problems. First: it's slower and the wrong choice in that situation to go up on the berms and the cars do not respond well to going over the berms in the esses. The instructor was likely showing you a subtlety of letting the rear of the car push up over the berm to help the car rotate. Part of the lesson in that segment is to consciously settle the car with a light tap of the brakes before turning into the approach into the esses. Part of the lesson is to transition through compound turns without building up the pendulum. Part of the lesson is to focus on the track out line and vehicle speed. At that point of the circuit, I believe the Carreras were around 110 mph on a balanced throttle. The idea being to get the car "unwound" (pointing straight down the line of the next, long straighaway) to be able to feed in full throttle as soon as possible to carry those extra rpm all the way down the straight. If you're up on the berms, they'll bring you in once they see your losing the line and starting to compound errors that might see some drivers end up paying that insurance deductible ... : ) The second problem is having ten instructors using a mixture of vocabulary and personal styles. I wrote my description of the "lessons" thee to illustrate there's so many technical terms and variations on the theme. Two people can be saying the same thing as instructors and yet sound like so many different things. A bit like describing a golf swing, to borrow off your example. I remember raising the same concern and getting a "you're right, we need to get everyone on the same descriptions" only to be black-flagged for experimenting with the line that one instructor showed one way and another instructor showed the "other" way (through a reducing radius, adverse camber series of compound turns with two clear-cut and both entirely conventional racing lines.)That's an interesting perspective. For me, at a track day, I'm usually not letting myself get distracted, I pretty much get fully absorbed by the driving and miss out on everything else going on around the paddock or the HPDE activities. But I found the PSDS had a weakness that too much time is spent in logistics (moving from part of the track for the skid pad and autocross, back to the track, then to lunch) and far too much time spent watching other people drive or waiting my turn. Personally, I deliberately avoid watching other people drive -- most people drive on the track or in short courses very badly. I believe that watching them only confuses your efforts to learn and adopt techniques and skills. I prefer to let my subconscious work through my nights' sleep absorbing the lessons of the day without all their mistakes floating around in my set of experiences.

I believe they've revised the format to include better data acquisition and instruction. I hope they've also done something to reduce the amount of wasted time. Of course, at the end of the day, we live in the physical world and until we have Star Trek "transporters" we just have to accept that everything takes time, people are as easily herded as cats and putting men behind the wheels of cars on a race track is something not to be done without systematic precautions. : )

All this discussion around PSDS has me wanting an early morning drive tomorrow I think. I'm still in the "novelty" phase with PDK. It's a lot of fun in Sport Plus and the Valentine 1 on the alert.

Coochas

I think Brian's autograph is worth more....sorry Colm.
Maybe you can autograph my Barber cap next to HH.