Longevity
09-12-2009, 09:53 PM
#16
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I used to lust after the TR6 when I was a kid thinking when I got one (used) I'd keep it for a lifetime. That made sense.
I can't see that making sense anymore. I hope I'm wrong and other guys can manage to hold on to and enjoy their new modern-day cars for life.
09-12-2009, 10:24 PM
#17
Porsche considers 200,000 miles to be one of their vehicles' lifetimes. I do the same. Personally, I can't imagine keeping a car that long unless it had some intrinsic value (i.e. passed on from my father, etc.).
09-12-2009, 11:36 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
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That's why I posted this. I am hoping to keep this car, but a turbo is not out of the question for me. I just realized the older cars are still on the road and, except for upkeep, the newer cars may not be quite as appealing due to their computers, etc. Love all the input and I got you all thinking !
09-13-2009, 01:03 AM
#19
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I believe the parts are SO easily changeable now I dont think it will be hard to up keep a new one.
Parts will be more expensive but book hour labor should go down.
I did most of my own maintenance on my 993TT, 996 GT3 and the 997 GT3. The 997 was so easy to take apart and put back together even a cave man could do it.
Parts will be more expensive but book hour labor should go down.
I did most of my own maintenance on my 993TT, 996 GT3 and the 997 GT3. The 997 was so easy to take apart and put back together even a cave man could do it.
09-13-2009, 04:30 AM
#20
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I understand parts may be changeable but i wonder whether in 20 years the microprocessors, sensors, PCMs and diagnostic tools will be available at a reasonable price. I take comfort that the mechanical & electrical parts for my 1962 Jag XKE can be machined or rebuilt if NOS isn't available, but I'm not sure someone will be able to build a chip that is no longer available.
03-04-2010, 02:19 PM
#21
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We are embarking upon an age where the modular design of the car will permit replacement of individual pieces, on an as-required basis. While many maintain that the older cars were 'better built' I will tell you that they were not. Porsche never built a better car than the ones coming out of there today. Material choices continue to become smaller and smaller as regulations and economies of scale dictate lighter materials and less expensive to produce materials. Ask any 993 owner if they have to replace the check straps (door hinge areas) on their 993s what they think about Porsche engineering. it's a radically expensive fix that requires literally cutting the door apart and rewelding pieces and then painting it all again. Nuts.
Materials seem cheaper in general but the engineering and design is far superior. Perhaps the best Porsche ever would be the one that had the benefit of modern day engineering and design, yet could be made out of heavier gauge materials with better life, and not driven by over regulation.
I think a good example are brakes. The standard brakes on a 911 used to easily last well over 100,000 miles. I never replaced a rotor on a 911 in my life. But with regulations dictating the removal of asbestos from brake pads came much harsher pads, which are destructive to the mild iron rotors of today. It's becoming nearly commonplace for owners to replace pads and rotors TOGETHER with less than 50,000 miles on their car. in addition, the daily frustration of dealing with dirty wheels and such led to Porsche pursuing a solution to the brake issue. With the development of the PCCB, they have been able to regain nearly lifetime rotors and pad life. But all this technology comes at a price.
There will always be frustration downstream as minor electrical components need replacement due to metal fatigue or Tin Whiskers. It will be the cost of keeping these cars on the road long enough for it to qualify for antique vehicle plates.
Materials seem cheaper in general but the engineering and design is far superior. Perhaps the best Porsche ever would be the one that had the benefit of modern day engineering and design, yet could be made out of heavier gauge materials with better life, and not driven by over regulation.
I think a good example are brakes. The standard brakes on a 911 used to easily last well over 100,000 miles. I never replaced a rotor on a 911 in my life. But with regulations dictating the removal of asbestos from brake pads came much harsher pads, which are destructive to the mild iron rotors of today. It's becoming nearly commonplace for owners to replace pads and rotors TOGETHER with less than 50,000 miles on their car. in addition, the daily frustration of dealing with dirty wheels and such led to Porsche pursuing a solution to the brake issue. With the development of the PCCB, they have been able to regain nearly lifetime rotors and pad life. But all this technology comes at a price.
There will always be frustration downstream as minor electrical components need replacement due to metal fatigue or Tin Whiskers. It will be the cost of keeping these cars on the road long enough for it to qualify for antique vehicle plates.
I was thinking about buying a 993 for a while but for as nice as they are do I really want to pay almost 50K for a car that at a minimum is a 12 year old car. For 50K I can buy a Boxster/Cayman that is like a year old or a 911 that is a few years old. Makes you put things in perspective so to speak.
I have a 20 year old VW Golf GTI that is a very basic car compared to say a 993 but it requires regular tweaking to keep the little beast running
. Golf's are far more common than 993's and parts are easy to get but are getting harder now.We shall have to see what happens with the newer cars as they get older with all the electronics they have.
03-04-2010, 02:56 PM
#22
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I think in general 997s are one of the most reliable cars Porshe has ever produced. So, as long as the car does what you desire, is not costing you an arm and a leg to maintain, it still gives you the same blood pumping adernaline when you drive it... you should keep it.
I just bought MY2007 a few months ago, and plan to keep it at least 5 years.
I just bought MY2007 a few months ago, and plan to keep it at least 5 years.
03-04-2010, 03:16 PM
#23
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As one of the older time Porsche owners here on Rennlist (I bought my first in 1974) I can say that all Porsches have had issues. All of them. You as an individual have to decide when enough is enough. Porsche's foray into magnesium engine cases (to save 22 lbs) was a total screwup. Head bolts were pulled, and their reliability suffered for years. Chain tensioners were the biggest issue, along with airboxes. I wouldn't own a 993 if you gave one to me. All the parts on the engines are drying out, and air leaks become more commonplace. Unless you are prepared to fully overhaul these things every twenty years you are going to have issues.
I was in the flying business for many years in the USAF, and later on, was involved in the supportability of them. Our Porsches are like old jets. You want to keep them flying, but it comes at a price. For aircraft, you find yourself willing to spend more to keep certain things working--because you have such a high sunk cost in that thing. (The same can almost be said for some of these cars!) We could have integrated circuit boards redone if they were mission critical. So can you--at a price. Reverse engineering is always possible. But how much are you willing to pay to do that. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, you have to take into account that much of what is built into these cars is designed around a particular service life--let's say 200,000 miles. Twenty years at 10,000 miles a year. The circuit boards are not designed to last any longer. Even on the shelf, they will fail. "Tin whiskers" will take its toll on these components. Many chips are glued onto boards today. How long will that glue hold up? In an automotive environment, it will be worse.
Many of the answers to your questions about which of these Porsches holds up the best is seen within Rennlist forums. Go take a look at the number of postings there are for the various models. One that should really stick out is the 928. It was always an expensive car to maintain. Much of the 928 forum discussions center on how to fix something. THAT'S what people do as their cars get old. Or, they buy a new one.
I was in the flying business for many years in the USAF, and later on, was involved in the supportability of them. Our Porsches are like old jets. You want to keep them flying, but it comes at a price. For aircraft, you find yourself willing to spend more to keep certain things working--because you have such a high sunk cost in that thing. (The same can almost be said for some of these cars!) We could have integrated circuit boards redone if they were mission critical. So can you--at a price. Reverse engineering is always possible. But how much are you willing to pay to do that. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, you have to take into account that much of what is built into these cars is designed around a particular service life--let's say 200,000 miles. Twenty years at 10,000 miles a year. The circuit boards are not designed to last any longer. Even on the shelf, they will fail. "Tin whiskers" will take its toll on these components. Many chips are glued onto boards today. How long will that glue hold up? In an automotive environment, it will be worse.
Many of the answers to your questions about which of these Porsches holds up the best is seen within Rennlist forums. Go take a look at the number of postings there are for the various models. One that should really stick out is the 928. It was always an expensive car to maintain. Much of the 928 forum discussions center on how to fix something. THAT'S what people do as their cars get old. Or, they buy a new one.
03-04-2010, 05:48 PM
#24
Here a perspective from someone who has actually owned a 993. My 993 has simply been the most reliable car I've ever owned. I purchased the car in 1998 and have driven the car approximately 50K miles. In that time nothing on the car has failed with the exception for a battery or two. If these cars are properly maintained, they are very robust. For me, this car came from a great era. Modern safety and performance (airbags, ABS, modern FI, etc) without the stuff I don't want (Nav, tire pressure monitoring, OBD-II, etc)
I also own a 1988 BMW 325is which I daily drive. It currently has 215K miles. It's an amazing car and will probably go another 200K miles before a rebuild. The car costs me very little to maintain. Why? Because it was made well and because it is simple. There's simply not much that can go wrong.
Are newer cars less well made than their predecessors? In some ways yes and in same ways no. For example, the dry sump oil system on the 993 is a bulletproof system which is not offered on many of the newer Porsches because it's expensive. On the other hand, some of the newer cars use better materials - especially for the interior. My point is that many modern automakers have chosen to spend their money by offering "luxury" items which customers say they want. As a result, they are sometimes force to skimp on other parts to keep costs in line. The M96 engine of the 996/986 and early 997/987 is a great example. Obviously Porsche failed to spend enough time durability testing these engines and we've all seen the resulting RMS and more significantly, IMS failures associated with this lack of durability testing.
I like the 997, and will probably buy an M97 engined version to DD when I retire the old BMW. However, I have no illusions about the fact that it will be more difficult to maintain than the earlier cars as it ages. Why? Because there's simply a lot more which can (and will) go wrong in time. That's just the way it is.
I also own a 1988 BMW 325is which I daily drive. It currently has 215K miles. It's an amazing car and will probably go another 200K miles before a rebuild. The car costs me very little to maintain. Why? Because it was made well and because it is simple. There's simply not much that can go wrong.
Are newer cars less well made than their predecessors? In some ways yes and in same ways no. For example, the dry sump oil system on the 993 is a bulletproof system which is not offered on many of the newer Porsches because it's expensive. On the other hand, some of the newer cars use better materials - especially for the interior. My point is that many modern automakers have chosen to spend their money by offering "luxury" items which customers say they want. As a result, they are sometimes force to skimp on other parts to keep costs in line. The M96 engine of the 996/986 and early 997/987 is a great example. Obviously Porsche failed to spend enough time durability testing these engines and we've all seen the resulting RMS and more significantly, IMS failures associated with this lack of durability testing.
I like the 997, and will probably buy an M97 engined version to DD when I retire the old BMW. However, I have no illusions about the fact that it will be more difficult to maintain than the earlier cars as it ages. Why? Because there's simply a lot more which can (and will) go wrong in time. That's just the way it is.
03-04-2010, 08:24 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
it is nice to bring this thread back to life. I was just thinking about this the other day. My next car, probably a 991 if they don't screw it up, will have the basics. No NAV, no power seats, it will have xm and bluetooth for the electronic goodies, PDK and SC. That's it. I do want to keep my next car a very long time, especially because it's a Porsche. i just don't want alot of extra eletronic things to replace in 5 years or so. My DD is a new lexus 250hs, a hybrid vehicle that I do like. It gets over 35 mpg on regular and has the absolute must-have gadgets. I lease the vehicle and can trade it for the next greatest thing as I see fit. i just don't see the newer cars having longevity after their warranty runs out. The Lexus has a 4 year, 50k miles warranty on everything and an 8 year, 100k warranty on the hybrid battery. The hybrid batteries will continue to improve, offer sports car like power and last, eventually, 1 million miles. do I think the car could last after the warranty without pouring some major money into it ...probably not, so that's why I will get a new DD every couple of years. Anyway, my point is a Porsche is a Porsche and to me, that means reliability and quality built. Something I don't have with any other car of this era. Period.
thanks for letting met vent...
thanks for letting met vent...
03-04-2010, 08:36 PM
#26
Poseur
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50,000 miles on a Porsche doesn't really challenge it for durability issues. Aside from some infant mortality failures, you haven't driven it enough to call it 'reliable.'
03-05-2010, 12:37 AM
#27
Wrong. Remember that mileage is only part of the equation. Time is equally relevant. This is a 15 year old car that has required nothing more than regular maintenance. That's reliable.
03-05-2010, 04:12 AM
#29
A car can deteriorate from age as well as mileage. Poorly designed seals, rubber and electronics in particular will not stand the test of time - regardless of mileage. Goodbye.
03-06-2010, 01:46 PM
#30
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This is why I have shied away from older ones. I know just based on my VW Golf that as the car ages the rubber, plastics and what not dry out. Plastic in particular becomes brittle and just disintegrates.
Take for example the headlight adjusters which I am planning on replacing today as the sun is out. A few weeks ago the left front headlight was suddently pointing at the ground. It turns out the screw adjustment assembly which allows the light to be pointed up/down literally disintegrated. When I went to look at it and just touched it, it fell apart.
It was a little tough getting the part even from VW. They had to get it from a warehouse in Germany. Fortunately this is only a $10 item. But I can see it getting much worse over time. My Golf is a very, very basic car - power nothing and the only electronics is the fuel injection.
I can see with a Porsche being much more sophisicated and costing a lot more. BTW, my Golf has 200K on it.
Take for example the headlight adjusters which I am planning on replacing today as the sun is out. A few weeks ago the left front headlight was suddently pointing at the ground. It turns out the screw adjustment assembly which allows the light to be pointed up/down literally disintegrated. When I went to look at it and just touched it, it fell apart.
It was a little tough getting the part even from VW. They had to get it from a warehouse in Germany. Fortunately this is only a $10 item. But I can see it getting much worse over time. My Golf is a very, very basic car - power nothing and the only electronics is the fuel injection.
I can see with a Porsche being much more sophisicated and costing a lot more. BTW, my Golf has 200K on it.
Last edited by tincanman99; 03-07-2010 at 12:36 AM.