Need user feedback on 911 AWD usefulness in non snowy conditions
06-30-2009, 05:46 PM
#17
AutoX
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I test drove the C4S, C2S and the Cayman S back to back the same day. Here is what I thought.
Fun to drive, Cayman S, period. Mid engine, lighter body and the engine sound, but simply just not a 911. You know what I mean.
About the Carrera, I didn't feel the heavy front of C4S but I do feel the light front of C2S ( I drove the C4 first). From stop to start, I felt the grip on C4S and the push on C2S. The question shouldn't be which one is better but which one you like. If you like the confidence of handling even in bad road conditions, C4 is the pick. I live in the north east, but I didn't buy C4S for that reason. I saw a Honda rolling back from the Pulaski Skyway in front of me under a snowing day. But if you have the skill to master the C2S and you enjoy that, C2S is definitely a very interesting car for less money.
And one more thing, don't mind the weight and performance between this two cars etc... unless you track them every day which I don't.
Fun to drive, Cayman S, period. Mid engine, lighter body and the engine sound, but simply just not a 911. You know what I mean.
About the Carrera, I didn't feel the heavy front of C4S but I do feel the light front of C2S ( I drove the C4 first). From stop to start, I felt the grip on C4S and the push on C2S. The question shouldn't be which one is better but which one you like. If you like the confidence of handling even in bad road conditions, C4 is the pick. I live in the north east, but I didn't buy C4S for that reason. I saw a Honda rolling back from the Pulaski Skyway in front of me under a snowing day. But if you have the skill to master the C2S and you enjoy that, C2S is definitely a very interesting car for less money.
And one more thing, don't mind the weight and performance between this two cars etc... unless you track them every day which I don't.
07-01-2009, 12:20 AM
#18
I love the 4S. I am on my third. However, be clear it is a sports car with low ground clearance. In deep snow it is useless. Even with 4 wheel drive, it is useless in 1 inch of snow (or less) without snow tyres. Mine is a hoot in the snow (and yes, I have snow tyres) and an inch of snow in TN will shut the place down for a month. However, I used to live in NJ and, honestly, I wouldn't/didn't use my 911 as my daily car on any day facing real snow.
I still love Coochas' yellow pictures.
Mark.
I still love Coochas' yellow pictures.
Mark.
07-01-2009, 08:53 AM
#19
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Frederick, MD
Posts: 642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
+1
I too lived in TN for a while and was very surprised how 1" of snow made such a difference.
I don't drive the C4S in the snow, as where I live, when it snows the C4S just becomes a plow
In the dry, I love how it handles and in non slip conditions only about 5% of the pwr is transferred to the front.
I too lived in TN for a while and was very surprised how 1" of snow made such a difference.
I don't drive the C4S in the snow, as where I live, when it snows the C4S just becomes a plow
In the dry, I love how it handles and in non slip conditions only about 5% of the pwr is transferred to the front.
07-01-2009, 02:42 PM
#20
Everyone looks at me as if I was retarded for driving a sports car through winter but I'm the one with the biggest smile on my face while everyone else just looks miserable. Hell, there's a guy with a Gallardo driving around in winter around my area.
We consider it winter 6-8 months of the year up here but the roads are very well taken care of. I'd consider the AWD 911 to be just as capable as any of my other vehicles for light snow driving. That being said... this is no SUV or Truck. I know when to park the 911 for a day. Only in the worst conditions do I have to leave it at home.
We consider it winter 6-8 months of the year up here but the roads are very well taken care of. I'd consider the AWD 911 to be just as capable as any of my other vehicles for light snow driving. That being said... this is no SUV or Truck. I know when to park the 911 for a day. Only in the worst conditions do I have to leave it at home.
07-01-2009, 10:21 PM
#21
Moderator
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Here we go again...
Bottom line - unless you drive in the snow often, there's no reason to get AWD. Take it from somebody that has a few thousand track miles in the rain / wet on RWD 997 products (C2S and GT3) - there's no way you are going to over-drive a RWD car in the rain. Try 125 MPH on the back straight at Watkins Glen in the pouring rain and then maybe 7/10 on the rain line through the turns. So instead of 90 MPH on a particular corner I might have been at 60 MPH. So we're talking about taking a 90 degree turn at 60 in the pouring rain. Fronts held like glue, rears weren't slipping. Perhaps I was on the edge of traction / steering, but who needs more in the pouring rain?
I think the biggest advantage is psychological. Thinking you'll get some magical benefit in wet handling / traction by having AWD.
Bottom line - unless you drive in the snow often, there's no reason to get AWD. Take it from somebody that has a few thousand track miles in the rain / wet on RWD 997 products (C2S and GT3) - there's no way you are going to over-drive a RWD car in the rain. Try 125 MPH on the back straight at Watkins Glen in the pouring rain and then maybe 7/10 on the rain line through the turns. So instead of 90 MPH on a particular corner I might have been at 60 MPH. So we're talking about taking a 90 degree turn at 60 in the pouring rain. Fronts held like glue, rears weren't slipping. Perhaps I was on the edge of traction / steering, but who needs more in the pouring rain?
I think the biggest advantage is psychological. Thinking you'll get some magical benefit in wet handling / traction by having AWD.
07-02-2009, 05:59 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Here we go again...
Bottom line - unless you drive in the snow often, there's no reason to get AWD. Take it from somebody that has a few thousand track miles in the rain / wet on RWD 997 products (C2S and GT3) - there's no way you are going to over-drive a RWD car in the rain. Try 125 MPH on the back straight at Watkins Glen in the pouring rain and then maybe 7/10 on the rain line through the turns. So instead of 90 MPH on a particular corner I might have been at 60 MPH. So we're talking about taking a 90 degree turn at 60 in the pouring rain. Fronts held like glue, rears weren't slipping. Perhaps I was on the edge of traction / steering, but who needs more in the pouring rain?
I think the biggest advantage is psychological. Thinking you'll get some magical benefit in wet handling / traction by having AWD.
Bottom line - unless you drive in the snow often, there's no reason to get AWD. Take it from somebody that has a few thousand track miles in the rain / wet on RWD 997 products (C2S and GT3) - there's no way you are going to over-drive a RWD car in the rain. Try 125 MPH on the back straight at Watkins Glen in the pouring rain and then maybe 7/10 on the rain line through the turns. So instead of 90 MPH on a particular corner I might have been at 60 MPH. So we're talking about taking a 90 degree turn at 60 in the pouring rain. Fronts held like glue, rears weren't slipping. Perhaps I was on the edge of traction / steering, but who needs more in the pouring rain?
I think the biggest advantage is psychological. Thinking you'll get some magical benefit in wet handling / traction by having AWD.
I gotta say though Ron, in the rain I was really runnng circles around people with the AWD. It was POURING rain though.
07-02-2009, 06:08 PM
#24
"Hurley Haywood:
"It maintains it's performance over a longer period of time. On a race track, the Carrera 2 would be faster for one or two laps. But over a five lap period, the Carrera 4 would be quicker because it manages it's tires better and allows you to lay down power through all four wheels."
"It maintains it's performance over a longer period of time. On a race track, the Carrera 2 would be faster for one or two laps. But over a five lap period, the Carrera 4 would be quicker because it manages it's tires better and allows you to lay down power through all four wheels."
07-02-2009, 06:54 PM
#25
Cap'n Insane the Engorged
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
"Hurley Haywood:
"It maintains it's performance over a longer period of time. On a race track, the Carrera 2 would be faster for one or two laps. But over a five lap period, the Carrera 4 would be quicker because it manages it's tires better and allows you to lay down power through all four wheels."
"It maintains it's performance over a longer period of time. On a race track, the Carrera 2 would be faster for one or two laps. But over a five lap period, the Carrera 4 would be quicker because it manages it's tires better and allows you to lay down power through all four wheels."
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...curious-3.html
07-02-2009, 07:07 PM
#26
Careful, the last time I posted that quote it killed the thread.
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...curious-3.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...curious-3.html
07-03-2009, 01:50 AM
#28
AutoX
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
07-03-2009, 08:43 AM
#30
Moderator
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I'm pulling from memory on all of this so forgive me if some of this is a bit off. But I've been following Porsche since I was a kid and I believe this is more or less accurate.
Years ago the 911 was a handful with snap oversteer. As the cars became more "main stream" and were desired and then purchased by non-enthusiast drivers, Porsche realized they might want to create something that would be easier and safer for the less experienced driver to be able to handle. I don't mean this in any negative way, just that there were those PCA types that knew how to driver a 911 from years of DE, then there were new comers to the brand that were every bit as much a fan of Porsche, but didn't have the driving skill.
Also, when they started putting tons of HP into the turbo cars, they realized that for some drivers you'd want to turn the front wheels as well as the rears to avoid power induced oversteer (burn out resulting in a spin and crash). The 964 Turbo was the last of a breed of forced induction rear wheel drive - and many love that car because it is RWD. 993 and beyond the Turbos probably became the "ultimate" car for those wanting the most HP they could possibly get in a Porsche. That is until the GT2 came along. One would have to ask "If AWD was the superior power delivery system, why would the ultimate Porsches have RWD (GT2 and CGT)?"
Then there's the concept of people buying a Porsche and driving it year round. So, AWD clearly is a benefit to those that put snow tires on and drive no matter what the weather.
Another point to look at is that until the current C4 and C4S came along, the C2 / C2S always beat the AWD version around the Ring and by a big margin. The big news a few years ago from Porsche and the press was that finally, they created an AWD version of the car that didn't lose time to the C2S around the track. So the good news is that today you don't necessarily lose time around a very long and complicated track (straights, lots of turns, etc.) by going with AWD.
So the point in all of this is that AWD is not necessarily a penalty, nor is it a benefit in typical weather, meaning not snow. The RWD version is just as quick perhaps because it's more about the tires than whether the front wheels are turning on their own or with power. If you don't have grip, a spinning front isn't going to do much for you.
As most have stated, the nice things about RWD include that the car is lighter, has more front trunk space, is less complex, requires less maintenance / less costly to repair, provides crisper steering inputs, and is substantially less expensive.
Years ago the 911 was a handful with snap oversteer. As the cars became more "main stream" and were desired and then purchased by non-enthusiast drivers, Porsche realized they might want to create something that would be easier and safer for the less experienced driver to be able to handle. I don't mean this in any negative way, just that there were those PCA types that knew how to driver a 911 from years of DE, then there were new comers to the brand that were every bit as much a fan of Porsche, but didn't have the driving skill.
Also, when they started putting tons of HP into the turbo cars, they realized that for some drivers you'd want to turn the front wheels as well as the rears to avoid power induced oversteer (burn out resulting in a spin and crash). The 964 Turbo was the last of a breed of forced induction rear wheel drive - and many love that car because it is RWD. 993 and beyond the Turbos probably became the "ultimate" car for those wanting the most HP they could possibly get in a Porsche. That is until the GT2 came along. One would have to ask "If AWD was the superior power delivery system, why would the ultimate Porsches have RWD (GT2 and CGT)?"
Then there's the concept of people buying a Porsche and driving it year round. So, AWD clearly is a benefit to those that put snow tires on and drive no matter what the weather.
Another point to look at is that until the current C4 and C4S came along, the C2 / C2S always beat the AWD version around the Ring and by a big margin. The big news a few years ago from Porsche and the press was that finally, they created an AWD version of the car that didn't lose time to the C2S around the track. So the good news is that today you don't necessarily lose time around a very long and complicated track (straights, lots of turns, etc.) by going with AWD.
So the point in all of this is that AWD is not necessarily a penalty, nor is it a benefit in typical weather, meaning not snow. The RWD version is just as quick perhaps because it's more about the tires than whether the front wheels are turning on their own or with power. If you don't have grip, a spinning front isn't going to do much for you.
As most have stated, the nice things about RWD include that the car is lighter, has more front trunk space, is less complex, requires less maintenance / less costly to repair, provides crisper steering inputs, and is substantially less expensive.