Oil scavenging pump failure
04-25-2009, 12:32 AM
#106
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks for looking out for me and alerting me to potential problems!
04-25-2009, 10:11 AM
#108
Race Director
An update. First the quick facts:
My first call on Friday morning was to PCNA. I plan on writing a letter to PCNA and needed a person and email address to send it to. I didn't speak with the person handling my case, but I asked someone if the research on my case had started. I was told "there has been a lot of activity". "Good", I thought - there appears to be a healthy discussion between the dealer and PCNA.
My next call was to my service advisor to discuss costs. He informed me that the rough numbers for the total parts/labor cost to get my car out the door for two scenarios:
Repair = $12,500 approx. (includes replacing failed parts, and some additional parts just to be safe, like the IMS and the other oil scavenging pump in case it has the same "flaw" as the failed pump)
Reman motor = $13,500 approx.
At the same time, I let my service advisor know that I was going to send a letter to PCNA. To this, he replied "PCNA wants to participate" (I guess that's Porsche speak for remuneration of some kind) and "a letter will certainly help your case".
Next up, I thought I'd go to the racing community to see what they know about failed oil scavenging pumps. I spoke with The Racers Group (TRG) and Jerry Woods. Let me be clear, both of these companies deal with racing motors (Cup and Koni GS) and not so much with street engines, but they do know how these engines fail under extreme stress. Neither TRG nor Jerry Woods see much in the way of oil scavenging pump failures on the street engines or even the race engines. So this has me scratching my head again if the oil scavenging pump could fail all by itself, or if it had some "help" (ie. foreign object debris). Companies like Jake Raby have seen enough oil scavenging pump failures due to FOD that they build a proprietary filter screen on the oil scavenging pump for their engines to prevent that failure mode.
I have also spoken with a prominent San Francisco trial lawyer (and friendly acquaintance) who owns multiple Porsches. He feels there's a solid case in my favor under the principles of embailment, just as another Rennlister noted earlier in this thread. It's worth mentioning that I have not once even breathed the words "lawyer" or "lawsuit" with the dealership. I'd rather see where the natural course of solving the problem takes us. In my view, bringing in a lawyer is the last step, and only if things cannot be resolved reasonably and to my satisfaction. But the good news is that I am well positioned with a lawyer lined up if need be.
And as an important aside - I do want the Rennlist community to know that my dealer has been professional and gracious, and my discussions with them very civilized, rational and open. The dealer has been extremely cooperative, calling and emailing me with regular updates, and answering all my detailed questions. They've had my car since March 24 (it will be 4 weeks this Monday) and have provided me with a nicely optioned loaner 2008 Cayenne since day one - before the engine even failed.
Now I need to write that letter to PCNA this morning!
My first call on Friday morning was to PCNA. I plan on writing a letter to PCNA and needed a person and email address to send it to. I didn't speak with the person handling my case, but I asked someone if the research on my case had started. I was told "there has been a lot of activity". "Good", I thought - there appears to be a healthy discussion between the dealer and PCNA.
My next call was to my service advisor to discuss costs. He informed me that the rough numbers for the total parts/labor cost to get my car out the door for two scenarios:
Repair = $12,500 approx. (includes replacing failed parts, and some additional parts just to be safe, like the IMS and the other oil scavenging pump in case it has the same "flaw" as the failed pump)
Reman motor = $13,500 approx.
At the same time, I let my service advisor know that I was going to send a letter to PCNA. To this, he replied "PCNA wants to participate" (I guess that's Porsche speak for remuneration of some kind) and "a letter will certainly help your case".
Next up, I thought I'd go to the racing community to see what they know about failed oil scavenging pumps. I spoke with The Racers Group (TRG) and Jerry Woods. Let me be clear, both of these companies deal with racing motors (Cup and Koni GS) and not so much with street engines, but they do know how these engines fail under extreme stress. Neither TRG nor Jerry Woods see much in the way of oil scavenging pump failures on the street engines or even the race engines. So this has me scratching my head again if the oil scavenging pump could fail all by itself, or if it had some "help" (ie. foreign object debris). Companies like Jake Raby have seen enough oil scavenging pump failures due to FOD that they build a proprietary filter screen on the oil scavenging pump for their engines to prevent that failure mode.
I have also spoken with a prominent San Francisco trial lawyer (and friendly acquaintance) who owns multiple Porsches. He feels there's a solid case in my favor under the principles of embailment, just as another Rennlister noted earlier in this thread. It's worth mentioning that I have not once even breathed the words "lawyer" or "lawsuit" with the dealership. I'd rather see where the natural course of solving the problem takes us. In my view, bringing in a lawyer is the last step, and only if things cannot be resolved reasonably and to my satisfaction. But the good news is that I am well positioned with a lawyer lined up if need be.
And as an important aside - I do want the Rennlist community to know that my dealer has been professional and gracious, and my discussions with them very civilized, rational and open. The dealer has been extremely cooperative, calling and emailing me with regular updates, and answering all my detailed questions. They've had my car since March 24 (it will be 4 weeks this Monday) and have provided me with a nicely optioned loaner 2008 Cayenne since day one - before the engine even failed.
Now I need to write that letter to PCNA this morning!
Being firm but being civil is the right thing to do.
04-27-2009, 05:17 PM
#109
Drifting
Isn't failure the overwhelming reason a crate engine would be ordered?
Every time I've gotten a 'core' rebate it was for a broken item: be it a starter, alternator, distributor, battery. Why is an engine any different?
04-29-2009, 12:38 AM
#110
Instructor
Thread Starter
Photos of crate 997 3.6L crate engine
Some pics of the crate engine (if you've never seen one) before it goes into the car...
Raw crate motor (above) - as shipped (on pallet)
Raw crate motor (above) - as shipped (close up)
Just before the motor goes back into the chassis
It's been 5 and 1/2 weeks (yup, "5.5 weeks") since I dropped the car off for service. I am so looking forward to driving "Diva" (you gotta name your car, right?).
Raw crate motor (above) - as shipped (on pallet)
Raw crate motor (above) - as shipped (close up)
Just before the motor goes back into the chassis
It's been 5 and 1/2 weeks (yup, "5.5 weeks") since I dropped the car off for service. I am so looking forward to driving "Diva" (you gotta name your car, right?).
Last edited by useridchallenged; 04-29-2009 at 12:40 AM. Reason: pic titles were incorrect
05-25-2010, 06:21 PM
#114
Track Day
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Dallas area
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useridchallenged - did it all work out? I just had an oil pump fail on my 997 C4S 3.8 and blow metal into my engine. It's totally ruined. 4 1/2 yr old car 5 mos out of warranty with 30K miles. Unbelievable.
08-02-2010, 06:06 PM
#115
Instructor
Thread Starter
Singe - considering that my car was at 68k miles and also 5 mos out of warranty, I'd say it worked out about as well as I could expect. The dealer/Porsche picked up 75% of the bill, I paid the remainder.
I also got an updated motor, so instead of a Nov 2004 997 motor, I now have a 997 motor with all the latest updates, heavier casting, etc. And the new motor has a 2-year factory warranty on the whole thing, which is worth something.
And Porsche NA updated their official records showing the new serial number for the replacement motor, so the car will never be considered a mechanical bastard.
I also got an updated motor, so instead of a Nov 2004 997 motor, I now have a 997 motor with all the latest updates, heavier casting, etc. And the new motor has a 2-year factory warranty on the whole thing, which is worth something.
And Porsche NA updated their official records showing the new serial number for the replacement motor, so the car will never be considered a mechanical bastard.
08-02-2010, 09:15 PM
#117
Advanced
Join Date: May 2010
Location: North America
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Wow, amazing story.
Kudos to useridchallenged, you kept a cool head and managed the situation...patiently. It was smart to keep your options open and prepare yourself for worst case (lawyers, etc), while keeping the communication lines open with Porsche for the outcome you wanted.
That looks like a new engine, is a factory remanufacture the same?
Kudos to useridchallenged, you kept a cool head and managed the situation...patiently. It was smart to keep your options open and prepare yourself for worst case (lawyers, etc), while keeping the communication lines open with Porsche for the outcome you wanted.
That looks like a new engine, is a factory remanufacture the same?
08-03-2010, 07:01 PM
#118
Instructor
Thread Starter
The replacement engine is a factory reman. I was told that there are no "new engines" - that all the Porsche factory replacement engines are remanufactured.
06-23-2024, 12:05 AM
#119
3rd Gear
Join Date: Jun 2019
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Dealer may be at fault
The dealer was test driving my car after installing new front brakes, replacing the clutch slave cylinder and clutch control arm, new RMS, and a bunch of miscellaneous non-engine repairs.
During the test drive, the mechanic heard a noise and when arriving back at the dealership found a hole in the valve cover and oil everywhere. The dealer called me up and said "something let loose in the engine" (see my earlier thread).
I've now learned that the oil scavenging pump has failed, and was the item that "let loose". The dealer said that there is nothing I've done that caused the part to fail - so it sounds like a design/part failure. However my car is now 20k miles out of warranty, and 4 months out of warranty.
The dealer is "talking to Germany" to see what can be done. I'm assuming they are trying to see if Porsche will cover any of the cost of the damage and replacement. I'm a bit scared to find out what this is going to cost.
So here are my questions:
1. Anyone else have their oil scavenging pump fail?
2. Does anyone know of any technical service bulletins that might discuss this part?
The oil scavenging pump fails catastrophically and violently. I'm good about servicing the car regularly and keeping the oil level correct, etc. So I'm wondering what can be done to either prevent this sort of failure (dealer says "nothing").
I feel like this is a time bomb ticking in the 997 without anyway to prevent it from blowing (it literally blew a finger size hole in the valve cover). I have yet to learn what else might have been damaged in the process.
At least it happened on the dealer's watch. I'm thankful for that.
During the test drive, the mechanic heard a noise and when arriving back at the dealership found a hole in the valve cover and oil everywhere. The dealer called me up and said "something let loose in the engine" (see my earlier thread).
I've now learned that the oil scavenging pump has failed, and was the item that "let loose". The dealer said that there is nothing I've done that caused the part to fail - so it sounds like a design/part failure. However my car is now 20k miles out of warranty, and 4 months out of warranty.
The dealer is "talking to Germany" to see what can be done. I'm assuming they are trying to see if Porsche will cover any of the cost of the damage and replacement. I'm a bit scared to find out what this is going to cost.
So here are my questions:
1. Anyone else have their oil scavenging pump fail?
2. Does anyone know of any technical service bulletins that might discuss this part?
The oil scavenging pump fails catastrophically and violently. I'm good about servicing the car regularly and keeping the oil level correct, etc. So I'm wondering what can be done to either prevent this sort of failure (dealer says "nothing").
I feel like this is a time bomb ticking in the 997 without anyway to prevent it from blowing (it literally blew a finger size hole in the valve cover). I have yet to learn what else might have been damaged in the process.
At least it happened on the dealer's watch. I'm thankful for that.
06-24-2024, 06:44 AM
#120
Instructor
Thread Starter
@Notthistime36 It's been 15 years and 120k miles since the IMS failure and new crate motor. 175k miles on the car, gunning for at least 250k and then likely a rebuild. If you read through the last page or two of the posts you'll see how the story ends and why. Long story short - the scavenging pump seized because of foreign object debris from a failing IMS bearing. Although out of warranty (miles and time), Porsche supplied a new crate motor at their cost, and I paid the labor to install it.
