useridchallenged

Update:

I sent a 5-page letter to PCNA regarding my case. Key points in the letter:

Potential further damage to engine after catastrophic pump failure
- car was driven for approx 7 miles (est 10 minutes) at freeway speeds after the pump failed
- common sense after unusual sound from rear of car followed immediately by rough running engine is to: (1) immediately pull over and stop engine, (2) investigate, (3) get advice from dealer - at least that's what I would do.

Doubt surrounding coincidence of engine failure at time of service
- Unrelated service performed in region of part failure (ie. bank 1 pump at front of engine failed after RMS replaced and possibly IMS flange seal replaced). If the bank 2 pump (rear of engine) had failed, there would be a stronger case for coincidental failure.
- Research through discussions with The Racers Group (TRG), Jerry Woods and Jake Raby indicate that oil-scavenging pumps effectively do not fail on their own. The known failure mode is foreign object debris (FOD)
- Root cause of engine failure unknown. Potential causes are: (1) random catastrophic failure of oil-scavenging pump (seems less likely after research); (2) FOD from other failing part in the engine; (3) FOD introduced during service of engine (coincidental timing and vicinity of service supports this theory)

Duty to early build vehicles
- First next generation vehicle buyers are taking risk and doing product testing for Porsche. They need Porsche support beyond warranty. Consider that it is easy for a daily driver to hit the 50,000 mile warranty limit in 30 months (2.5 years - I did). My engine failure occured 3.5 months past the ex-warranty date.

Replacing engine as only sensible remedy
- Unknown root cause of failure means the engine may still be at risk
- Potential further damage and unknown consequences of driving on failed engine for approx 7 miles (est. 10 minutes) at freeway speeds
- Potential for FOD remaining in engine after repair unless costly tear down and cleaning performed

Hope to hear today from PCNA and the dealer.

machina

With all the extenuating circumstances, i expect PCNA to cover the motor with a rebuild.

Is your car a 2005 C2S?

There are several documented failures of MY2005 cars.

I have always planned to get rid of my car before the warranty ends next year.

Good luck.

dr

useridchallenged

No, it's a 2005 C2 (2004 build). It does have PASM and 19-inch wheels (multiple sets), so to some degree I get a bit of the "S" experience. For my style of driving, the S is overkill - I'm the performance bottleneck, not the car.

Hard to believe that a Porsche is a "disposable" vehicle in the span of 4 years.

Based on my experience, I would consider an extended warranty as an alternative. Keep driving your MY 2005 car until the 997-2 has some history and improvements under its belt. If the 997-2 proves to be all that it purports to be, then upgrade.

I truly hope that Porsche will finally sort out its water-cooled engine woes starting with the new 997-2.

911rox

any developments???

997, esq

Sounds like you did a great job on your letter.

boolala

I thought that you were present when they opened the pump and said there was no debris.

997, esq

I'm no expert, but I believe one of the posters said debris sucked into the pump could end out elsewhere in the engine.

useridchallenged

The near final outcome...

PCNA together with the dealer (Carlsen Porsche in Redwood City, CA) agreed to cover 75% of the cost to repair the engine. I was still uncomfortable with a repaired engine and asked if they would apply a dollar credit for the repair to a new engine. PCNA is used to one-for-one transactions, so the warranty paperwork (ie. paying for an "engine repair", but actually doing an "engine replace") was somewhat complicated for PCNA.

In the end, PCNA agreed to apply a 75% credit for the repair toward replacing the engine.

Quite a saga, but a happy and fair ending considering the vehicle was out of warranty in terms of mileage and months. And the failed motor may have been a blessing in disguise in the end, since my 2004 build motor is being replaced with a fresh motor that has all the revisions (improved front engine casting, improved IMS, improved oil-scavenging pumps, etc.).

Since I was effectively paying the difference between repairing and replacing the motor, I asked Carlsen Porsche to look at a 3.6L vs 3.8L replacement. The 3.8L would add another $9k of parts and labor - the crate motor is quite a bit more expensive, my damaged 3.6L engine cannot be applied as a core for the 3.8L, new harnesses are needed (non-trivial installation), and firmware needs to be changed.

I chose to purchase the non-S originally because it would be a little better balanced with the lighter motor in the back, and that the driver (me) was the biggest performance limitation, not the car. So I decided to stick with the 3.6L motor and invest the $9k that I would have spent on a 3.8L upgrade into more tires and time autocrossing.

We'll see what the total bill works out to - the labor is the swing item. Carlsen Porsche gave me a worst case scenario for parts and labor of about $4400 to replace the motor after the repair credit.

Even in these dark economic times, Porsche still stands behind their product (at least 75% on an out-of-warranty vehicle in my case). I never threated legal action, so I feel this is an honest case of PCNA and Carlsen Porsche supporting their product rather than being strong-armed into doing so.

Okay, maybe the letter helped a little.

PCNA was a bit hostile at first when I opened my case with them. But after they did their research with the dealer and read my letter, they softened up considerably and their tone become much more cooperative.

Carlsen Porsche was helpful all along, answering my questions and probably spending close to 2 hours on the phone and in the shop with me going over the engine and all the possible failure scenarios. My only ding against the dealer is that I feel that they should have been more proactive by opening the case with PCNA rather than me. Aside from that, Carlsen has been professional and courteous throughout this ordeal. I've had a 2008 Cayenne loaner from the dealer for 4 weeks and counting.

I truly want to give my heartfelt thanks to all the Rennlist members who gave me their support and constructive ideas both on the forum and privately. It really helped me stay focused and calm.

Next... (what? it's not over?):

1. I'll post the final bill for the engine replacement
2. I'll let you know how a 70k mile car with a new engine drives
3. We ordered the engine yesterday (Thurs). I'll post how long it takes to complete the engine swap.
4. I won't declare "done" until the car is back in my hands

TGIF

997, esq

Good job. Sounds like a fair outcome, all things considered. I still don't think it is likely the part coincidently failed in the dealer's hands, however.

useridchallenged

Agreed.

I could have threatened legally, and that might have gotten me 100%, or that could have gotten me a court case with an unknown outcome.

Something about a bird in the hand being worth more than two in the bush...

Thanks for all the support, 997, esq!

997, esq

You are welcome! And, yes, take it from a litigator -- litigation is best avoided. It takes a lot of time, effort, and money. Reasonable compromise is nearly always the best way to go. (Sometimes people are unreasonable and/or compromise simply is not possible, and then you have to litigate.) They coughed up compensation for a good portion of the harm and accomodated an engine switch that should keep your car running for years to come. Glad to see that they basically did the right thing.

brendo

It looks like to me that YOU, pcna and the dealer did the right things. good for you. now, can you start a thread on how to best break in a new motor in an older chassis?

on a side note, it's nice to hear from a litigator that litigation is best avoided. totally agree that a reasonable discussion and/or compromise with all factors considered will most likely lead to the best outcome.

f4 plt

Bottom line, it appears that you handled this problem calmly, professionally, factually and thus correctly which resulted in a favorable outcome. I wish your car a speedy recovery from it's major heart surgery and you many trouble free miles ahead.

jimmermd

thank you for listing the dealer and including your compliments...so many times we hear the rant but not the praise. at the least, this thread illustrated the varying opinions of the members. the process could be furthered if this situation was posed to our dealers to hear their opinions. there may be common predictors that would determine the outcome if this was our situation.

ADias

$4.4k is far more than 25% of a $10k engine replacement - the usual installed rate. I would shop around and direct PCNA to send the engine to a dealer with appropriate charges. Rector, Porsche of Fremont, and Stevens Creek Porsche are nearby.