Real life pricing
10-29-2008, 10:01 PM
#31
Cap'n Insane the Engorged
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Being new to Porsche sales, this thread has been very informative.
Thanks to all who've posted.
I'm another who will say that Stoppie is a stand up guy and I wouldn't hesitate to buy from him. He spent quite some time on the phone w/me trying
to impart his vast experience.
Before I started this new job, I had little appreciation for what goes into a car before the customer takes delivery.
Even though I bought my Porsche from the same guy I bought two other cars from. I figured all he did was make a few phone calls and *poof* the car was ready for delivery.
There's a lot that goes into to behind the scenes from detailing, to inspection, to making sure the new owner expectations have been exceeded.
Thanks to all who've posted.
I'm another who will say that Stoppie is a stand up guy and I wouldn't hesitate to buy from him. He spent quite some time on the phone w/me trying
to impart his vast experience. Before I started this new job, I had little appreciation for what goes into a car before the customer takes delivery.
Even though I bought my Porsche from the same guy I bought two other cars from. I figured all he did was make a few phone calls and *poof* the car was ready for delivery.
There's a lot that goes into to behind the scenes from detailing, to inspection, to making sure the new owner expectations have been exceeded.
10-29-2008, 10:27 PM
#32
interesting thread-i am not a salesman, but if i was, i would read this thread to get some insight into the customer's minds. if the dealership respects you as a customer, they will give you a good deal. you don't have to be a student of economics to know that hi line, or any line, purchases are down now. having said that, some kind of discount would be appropriate on a porsche purchase now. most dealers have plenty of cars available now-a lot of people are afraid to make large purchases now. you could probably get a discount on most every model now-even one of the gt2's that are left. i just prchased a turbo-i tried to order one from a nearby dealer, but he refused to commit to a sales price on the turbo or even speculate about a trade in price-i walked and bought one of the various new 09 turbos that are in various dealer showrooms because of cancelled orders. the dealer was happy to give me $4000 off of my purchase and a very good trade in on my lightly used carrera s. i respect the posters who say that they would rather pay full price than ask for a discount, but i am sorry, i just don't see it. i also agree with the posters who say that it is worthless to nickle and dime the dealers-they are right. get a good deal (whatever you think a realistic and appropriate deal is) and make the purchase-driving the salesman nuts to save another $250-$500 is worthless. but basically, this is a business transaction-you are not in the dealership to establish respect for yourself, or to find friends-you are there to buy a car. if we realise that, the entire purchasing process will be easier. good luck on you new car.
10-29-2008, 10:45 PM
#33
Burning Brakes
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Marty, I completely agree, there is an upper limit when it comes to me tolerating differential pricing; no doubt about that and you are absolutely right. But I'm honestly not sure where to put that threshold; it definitely is not within a 5 percent margin of the price. Probably somewhere around 7.5 percent and up. I really haven't been in that situation before, though.
10-29-2008, 10:47 PM
#34
That is correct, you can only speak for yourself.
Having been both a Porsche fan and So Cal resident since childhood, over the decades I've been to and spoken with salespeople at most dealers in Porsche's largest market. I can say that most do absolutely nothing to earn my respect; as a customer my goal would be to obtain a car for absolutely the lowest price possible because they deserve the very least amount of profit.
Most recent example was at BH Porsche on 997.2 launch day. The launch cars were nowhere in sight, and the sales manager played dumb when I asked about them. Once it became clear that I knew what I was talking about (should the salesperson not show some product knowledge?) I was shuttled (after a salesman shuffled some cars around) down the street and five floors below ground to a dark storage facility. Clean and ready to go, but clearly out of sight in an effort to move 2008 inventory. Both launch cars were jammed between others, locked, and the salesman didn't think to bring any keys. Total waste of my time. On the way back to the dealership he had the nerve to ask me which I was planning to buy today. When I said I would want to order to my specs, he gave me a "pffft that will take a year". Exactly why should I trust guys like this to give me a good deal?
For the record, I leased my 2005 through PFS at full MSRP; it was 10/04, and I understand the principle of supply/demand, so I didn't even try to negotiate. I had followed the salesman to an out-of-the way dealership because I had a rare good experience with him on a test drive a couple years earlier and I held on to his card. I would have gone to him first this time 'round, but I discovered via the internet that he has since moved to an even more out-of-the-way dealership without letting his customers know. Exactly why should I trust guys like this to give me a good deal?
Bottom line is that it is a buyers market, car salesman (at least in this area) get little respect because they deserve no more, and getting the best deal possible on a $100k purchase is no reflection on how people conduct their lives in general.
Having been both a Porsche fan and So Cal resident since childhood, over the decades I've been to and spoken with salespeople at most dealers in Porsche's largest market. I can say that most do absolutely nothing to earn my respect; as a customer my goal would be to obtain a car for absolutely the lowest price possible because they deserve the very least amount of profit.
Most recent example was at BH Porsche on 997.2 launch day. The launch cars were nowhere in sight, and the sales manager played dumb when I asked about them. Once it became clear that I knew what I was talking about (should the salesperson not show some product knowledge?) I was shuttled (after a salesman shuffled some cars around) down the street and five floors below ground to a dark storage facility. Clean and ready to go, but clearly out of sight in an effort to move 2008 inventory. Both launch cars were jammed between others, locked, and the salesman didn't think to bring any keys. Total waste of my time. On the way back to the dealership he had the nerve to ask me which I was planning to buy today. When I said I would want to order to my specs, he gave me a "pffft that will take a year". Exactly why should I trust guys like this to give me a good deal?
For the record, I leased my 2005 through PFS at full MSRP; it was 10/04, and I understand the principle of supply/demand, so I didn't even try to negotiate. I had followed the salesman to an out-of-the way dealership because I had a rare good experience with him on a test drive a couple years earlier and I held on to his card. I would have gone to him first this time 'round, but I discovered via the internet that he has since moved to an even more out-of-the-way dealership without letting his customers know. Exactly why should I trust guys like this to give me a good deal?
Bottom line is that it is a buyers market, car salesman (at least in this area) get little respect because they deserve no more, and getting the best deal possible on a $100k purchase is no reflection on how people conduct their lives in general.
10-29-2008, 10:52 PM
#35
Burning Brakes
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I completely agree with you. And I think that's exactly why there is no black-and-white solution.
Once every two years, I teach the graduate-level "Negotiations" elective at our school. Not surprisingly, our students' behaviors in the case exercises are not any different from the responses in this thread: the same identical situation is viewed by some students as zero-sum (distributive), while others view it as win-win (integrative). And then they have the same discussions that we have.
By the way, I may be biased towards integrative negotiations because of my consulting specialty (German FDI in Mexico), which absolutely - without exceptions - demands win-win outcomes.
Once every two years, I teach the graduate-level "Negotiations" elective at our school. Not surprisingly, our students' behaviors in the case exercises are not any different from the responses in this thread: the same identical situation is viewed by some students as zero-sum (distributive), while others view it as win-win (integrative). And then they have the same discussions that we have.
By the way, I may be biased towards integrative negotiations because of my consulting specialty (German FDI in Mexico), which absolutely - without exceptions - demands win-win outcomes.
10-29-2008, 11:13 PM
#36
Nordschleife Master
Times have changed with the current economic situation....
Also spell check is your friend
Also spell check is your friend
10-29-2008, 11:19 PM
#37
10-30-2008, 12:10 AM
#38
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Americans for the most part just aren't used to, or very good, at haggling. Buying a house or car; that's about the only time we try to negotiate a price. Who haggles with a clerk at Wal-Mart or Best Buy? They would look at you like you had two heads
So most of us (myself included) get all squishy and emotional when it comes to negotiating car and house purchases.. "Did I insult them with my offer?" "Did I look like a jerk and get ripped off?"
Who cares? It's a transaction. You offer what you are willing to pay; the seller accepts it, or doesn't. Easier said than done, though, because its just not a part of our everyday culture.
So most of us (myself included) get all squishy and emotional when it comes to negotiating car and house purchases.. "Did I insult them with my offer?" "Did I look like a jerk and get ripped off?"
Who cares? It's a transaction. You offer what you are willing to pay; the seller accepts it, or doesn't. Easier said than done, though, because its just not a part of our everyday culture.
10-30-2008, 02:54 AM
#39
Burning Brakes
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However, even in cultures where haggling is the norm, you would still attempt to never "insult" the other party. There's an unwritten script to haggling, just as there is a script to shaking hands or conducting a meeting, and it has to be learned. People do care whether or not you insult them, and doing so would mean the immediate end of your business endeavor.
On the other hand, in most of these cultures you don't earn any respect without haggling either. If you buy anything in Delhi or Bangkok at full price (or in Soho, for that matter), you are just a dumb tourist. But a complete lowball offer will leave the same impression: stupid foreigner who does not know the rules of the game.
You are right, to some it's a mere transaction (zero-sum), but to others it's an exchange with mutual benefits (win-win). Exactly how you view the situation determines whether you choose a distributive or an integrative approach. That being said, statistically (because of the one-time-deal character of the situation), most home buyers take a zero-sum angle when purchasing their house, so you are definitely correct on that.
By the way, here are some decent books for those who wish to refine their negotiation and persuasion skills (Cialdini's Influence is my favorite):
How To Haggle
The Art and Science of Negotiation
Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion
The Art of Getting What You Want
Negotiation Strategies for Reasonable People
How To Persuade People Who Don't Want To Be Persuaded
10-30-2008, 10:56 AM
#40
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10-30-2008, 11:36 AM
#41
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I find it funny that someone will bust someone's ***** for not sweating 3k off a 100k car when they themselves will leave 20 to 40 grand on the table in deprecation by ordering new and not considering a low mile car that's 1-2 years old.
If someone enjoys being pampered and having the red carpet rolled out for them because they pay MSRP more power to them!
If someone enjoys being pampered and having the red carpet rolled out for them because they pay MSRP more power to them!
10-30-2008, 12:39 PM
#42
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BTW, I sure don't recall seeing any fresh 997 C2S coupes on the used market a year ago with blk/sand full leather, sport exhaust, Bose, upgraded wheels, etc. for mid 40's (40k savings). In fact, an '05 with high miles and those options still can't be had for mid 40's. Not sure what market you've been shopping in, but I'd suggest you buy them all up and resell them in the real world for a huge profit.
10-30-2008, 01:03 PM
#43
I see nothing wrong with pressing for the best price you can get. They will not sell you the car if they are not making money or if your offer is way out of line. Besides it's your only chance to get any kind of deal out of them. It's not a nickel and dime tactic, that happens when you take your car in for service. $500 for a tire or $500 for an annual service that is little more then an oil change? Who is racking up the nickels and dimes?
Some see 5 to 10k as nothing to worry about when contemplating a 100k purchase. Others may see it as a set of wheels, an exhaust, a trip to Porsche driving school, or a nice gift for the wife who tolerates such luxuries in our lives.
I feel like I asked for a fair deal and my salesman worked with me to get it. I will return to him in the future. The other dealership who gave me the ultimatum on the other hand will never get any of my business.
FWIW I do not think any of us got into the position to be able to own one of these cars by being careless about our money.
Some see 5 to 10k as nothing to worry about when contemplating a 100k purchase. Others may see it as a set of wheels, an exhaust, a trip to Porsche driving school, or a nice gift for the wife who tolerates such luxuries in our lives.
I feel like I asked for a fair deal and my salesman worked with me to get it. I will return to him in the future. The other dealership who gave me the ultimatum on the other hand will never get any of my business.
FWIW I do not think any of us got into the position to be able to own one of these cars by being careless about our money.
10-30-2008, 04:05 PM
#44
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10-30-2008, 04:09 PM
#45
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Apples and oranges. Sure you can purchase a used car for less than a comparable new car, but you end up with a used car.
Not sure what market you've been shopping in, but I'd suggest you buy them all up and resell them in the real world for a huge profit.