X51 Package
06-25-2008, 12:18 AM
#31
Racer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot of insightful comments here, I don't think anyone has it totally wrong. The X51 makes more or less sense depending on your perspective. Like Mike (mdrums), I have the interest and opportunity to pu the extra power to use, but it didn't make economic sense for me. If I had a lot more money, X51 and PCCB would've been great... and I like the GT3 but if you want a back seat and ground clearance (i.e., a driver), the upgraded Carrera is still really cool. A certain niche that likes N/A, doesn't want turbo lag and TT weight will still prefer the Carrera S with PCCB and X51 even though it isn't a "good value" price-wise.
06-25-2008, 02:24 PM
#32
More or less equal to the facelift cars is not correct. Facelift has more torque under the curve. X51 does not provide direct injection. X51 does not have a limited slip differential. X51 does not have PDK. X51 does not provide sports suspension.
How can X51 retain any value? Now, the value is really to the individual and it is difficult to put a price on the enjoyment people have had with it over the years. It is not difficult to put a price on the value of the option when the car is traded or sold and X51 brings a 5k premium at best.
How can X51 retain any value? Now, the value is really to the individual and it is difficult to put a price on the enjoyment people have had with it over the years. It is not difficult to put a price on the value of the option when the car is traded or sold and X51 brings a 5k premium at best.
Then you go on to discuss trade in value...of course options don't carry much on trade-in...which ones do...and I'll bet PDK, LSD and sport suspension carry about the same percentage of retail as any of the other options...(by the way PDK is not worth it from a driving experience since they chose to put the levers in a unnatural driving position...you hands are not in that spot when driving...I know my wife has a Boxster S tip and i can't stand trying to use the levers)...X-51 probably stands out as a higher percentage...although due to the $$ it appears more dramatic...
Anyway...good news is you don't need to buy the X-51...I can...I did...and have no regrets...cheers
06-25-2008, 07:16 PM
#34
You use the word "more" like it has significant value. 381hp vs 384hp when brought down to the axle is meaningless...it is technically "more" but not on a relative basis. The same for the slight bump in torque. Then you throw in new options that have nothing to do with comparing a 997S with X-51 to a FL 997S. Why not throw in ceramic brakes...I don't have those as an option...
Then you go on to discuss trade in value...of course options don't carry much on trade-in...which ones do...and I'll bet PDK, LSD and sport suspension carry about the same percentage of retail as any of the other options...(by the way PDK is not worth it from a driving experience since they chose to put the levers in a unnatural driving position...you hands are not in that spot when driving...I know my wife has a Boxster S tip and i can't stand trying to use the levers)...X-51 probably stands out as a higher percentage...although due to the $$ it appears more dramatic...
Anyway...good news is you don't need to buy the X-51...I can...I did...and have no regrets...cheers
Then you go on to discuss trade in value...of course options don't carry much on trade-in...which ones do...and I'll bet PDK, LSD and sport suspension carry about the same percentage of retail as any of the other options...(by the way PDK is not worth it from a driving experience since they chose to put the levers in a unnatural driving position...you hands are not in that spot when driving...I know my wife has a Boxster S tip and i can't stand trying to use the levers)...X-51 probably stands out as a higher percentage...although due to the $$ it appears more dramatic...
Anyway...good news is you don't need to buy the X-51...I can...I did...and have no regrets...cheers
PDK alone will offer a performance boost equal or greater than X51. Combine that with the new motor, which you have yet to drive, and it will be a huge difference. It is a huge difference, if it wasn't people would be looking for used X51 cars and save money instead of ordering facelifts.
The trade in value is relevant because you will lose less money on a facelift on trade down the line than you will on a trade + x51. You have not tried PDK, just because the buttons/paddles are different does not automatically make them worse. By all reviews so far, the PDK is superior to everything else out there.
My Cayenne S is a tip, guess what, it is an SUV so it does not bother me. I would never consider the TIP as giving me an idea as to how PDK will perform, it isn't even remotely the same thing. PDK is the superior performance option, period.
06-26-2008, 12:31 AM
#35
Three Wheelin'
You are serious? You wonder if the new car will match X51 down low and doubt it will up top? Porsche released their performance specs for the facelift. 0-100 mph in 9.6 seconds. X51 won't be able to see the facelifts license plate. It also has more torque down low, and more power up top, and everywhere else under the curve. You need to take a look at the specs again.
Oh, and the 200 dollar wine today analogy is a terrible one as it would depend on the vintage, the varietal, storage conditions, etc.
Oh, and the 200 dollar wine today analogy is a terrible one as it would depend on the vintage, the varietal, storage conditions, etc.
... and regarding the wine... the assumption is that you buy a good one! not just a bottle with a $200 sticker...
do you have access to the 2009 997S torque graphs?
06-26-2008, 12:51 AM
#36
Hang on... your telling me that a 997 with X-51 can't do 0-100 mph in 9.6 seconds?? hmmm I find that hard to believe... I bet your wrong on that one... 996 3.6's have been recorded @ 10.2-10.3 seconds... 997 with x-51 is faaaast!!
... and regarding the wine... the assumption is that you buy a good one! not just a bottle with a $200 sticker...
do you have access to the 2009 997S torque graphs?
... and regarding the wine... the assumption is that you buy a good one! not just a bottle with a $200 sticker...
do you have access to the 2009 997S torque graphs?
There is a video of a standard carrera S on the road course vs X51. X51 could not overcome the difference in driver skill.
The facelift laps the ring at 7:50, I don't think you understand just how far beyond X51 performance that is.
The facelift is simply a better all around package, and you are overstating X51. The X51 is not as quick as a 996 GT3 which it would need to be in order to be in the facelifts ballpark.
Regarding the wine, it depends on the vintage. You can buy a 200 dollar bottle of a good wine that is past the drinking window. Or you can buy a 200 dollar first growth from a poor vintage. Wine is a completely different subject that does not exactly apply, a whole different world really.
06-26-2008, 03:17 AM
#37
Rennlist Member
Regarding the wine, it depends on the vintage. You can buy a 200 dollar bottle of a good wine that is past the drinking window. Or you can buy a 200 dollar first growth from a poor vintage. Wine is a completely different subject that does not exactly apply, a whole different world really.
My point is this. I am very happy with my X-51. When I placed my order in 2005, I knew there would be something faster in the future (there was no GT3 or turbo when I ordered). I drove the base 997 and the S and decided the X-51 was where I wanted to be. I've been driving my car for 21/2 years and have no desire to trade up to the facelifted model to gain more hp. In other words, I am in my "drinking window" right now. Even better news is that I don't worry about any potential loss I would take on my car to trade "up" to the newer model... still not available here in the states and probably not going see much discounting for awhile. So what's the real cost of "moving up" to the facelifted model for those current owners seeking more hp? I'm guessing around 17K.
In short, I would rather take the $200 bottle that I can drink now than wait.
Now as to whether or not the X-51 is better than a standard S, I'll ask again.......Is $200 bottle of wine that much better than a $50.
06-26-2008, 05:34 AM
#38
If you say so...but let me ask you this. If our $200 bottle of wine that is already in its drinking window ( I wlll assume it is from the proper vintage and has been properly stored etc, etc...), is suddenly challenged by a $150 bottle from the same winery but needs 2 years before its drinking window is open, does that make you feel differently about the $200 bottle. Is it worth less? Will it taste any different now? Should I pour it out because the new wine is coming?
My point is this. I am very happy with my X-51. When I placed my order in 2005, I knew there would be something faster in the future (there was no GT3 or turbo when I ordered). I drove the base 997 and the S and decided the X-51 was where I wanted to be. I've been driving my car for 21/2 years and have no desire to trade up to the facelifted model to gain more hp. In other words, I am in my "drinking window" right now. Even better news is that I don't worry about any potential loss I would take on my car to trade "up" to the newer model... still not available here in the states and probably not going see much discounting for awhile. So what's the real cost of "moving up" to the facelifted model for those current owners seeking more hp? I'm guessing around 17K.
In short, I would rather take the $200 bottle that I can drink now than wait.
Now as to whether or not the X-51 is better than a standard S, I'll ask again.......Is $200 bottle of wine that much better than a $50.
My point is this. I am very happy with my X-51. When I placed my order in 2005, I knew there would be something faster in the future (there was no GT3 or turbo when I ordered). I drove the base 997 and the S and decided the X-51 was where I wanted to be. I've been driving my car for 21/2 years and have no desire to trade up to the facelifted model to gain more hp. In other words, I am in my "drinking window" right now. Even better news is that I don't worry about any potential loss I would take on my car to trade "up" to the newer model... still not available here in the states and probably not going see much discounting for awhile. So what's the real cost of "moving up" to the facelifted model for those current owners seeking more hp? I'm guessing around 17K.
In short, I would rather take the $200 bottle that I can drink now than wait.
Now as to whether or not the X-51 is better than a standard S, I'll ask again.......Is $200 bottle of wine that much better than a $50.
Wine does not apply, it is a completely different subject. We really should leave it alone but with wine dollar value does not equal performance. A bottle that was spectacular may not be 5 years down the line and a bottle that is not may be very good in 10 years. Different ball game. Two different bottles at the same price point can be two completely different things.
If I order a facelift now, it will be surpassed. I know this going in.
06-26-2008, 05:43 AM
#39
Three Wheelin'
I can't believe an X51 car would make me any happier than I am with my current non-X51 C2S. Not once while driving have I felt it was missing somehing-besides heated seats.
06-26-2008, 04:40 PM
#40
Probably the biggest issue with the X51 is the GT3. For the price of a Carrera S with just the X51 engine, aerokit and Sport wheels is actually higher than the base price of a GT3. So that is without the GT3s extra power, bigger brakes, adjustable suspension or LSD. If the GT3 didn't exist, the X51 would look far more attractive.
06-26-2008, 08:37 PM
#41
I have owned an x51 and i now have a gt3.
I loved both cars for different reasons and I could see the value of owning both (if money was no object, which it was for me regretably)
X51 has much more lower end grunt and is way more driveable on the street than my gt3.
Also, I got the x51 because the gt3 wasnt out yet and I wanted the top end NA car out there when my last 911 lease was up.
However, the only bad thing about the x51 is that they would not give it the value they should have when i went to trade it in. I was frankly shocked.
I loved both cars for different reasons and I could see the value of owning both (if money was no object, which it was for me regretably)
X51 has much more lower end grunt and is way more driveable on the street than my gt3.
Also, I got the x51 because the gt3 wasnt out yet and I wanted the top end NA car out there when my last 911 lease was up.
However, the only bad thing about the x51 is that they would not give it the value they should have when i went to trade it in. I was frankly shocked.
06-26-2008, 10:51 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
My point was you can not put a price point on what x51 means to an individual. You CAN put a price point on its monetary value. No one is going to say you are not happy. X51 has been surpassed, nothing hard to believe or understand about this.
Wine does not apply, it is a completely different subject. We really should leave it alone but with wine dollar value does not equal performance. A bottle that was spectacular may not be 5 years down the line and a bottle that is not may be very good in 10 years. Different ball game. Two different bottles at the same price point can be two completely different things.
If I order a facelift now, it will be surpassed. I know this going in.
Wine does not apply, it is a completely different subject. We really should leave it alone but with wine dollar value does not equal performance. A bottle that was spectacular may not be 5 years down the line and a bottle that is not may be very good in 10 years. Different ball game. Two different bottles at the same price point can be two completely different things.
If I order a facelift now, it will be surpassed. I know this going in.
Enjoy your facelifted car....when you get it.
06-27-2008, 01:07 AM
#43
Three Wheelin'
I bought my car because it had the X51. I intend to drive it tomorrow. You can order a faster car, but it will be a while, a lot more money, and not much faster than what the X51 owners will be driving tomorrow. We can get a car like yours when it comes time to order again. Everybody learns to love the car they have because the trade is expensive.
I don't think I made a dumb decision, but all my assets are getting cheaper every day. And the inputs are getting more expensive. I might be happy to stop upgrading cars right here, and wait on the hydrogen or whatever the next technology is.
I don't think I made a dumb decision, but all my assets are getting cheaper every day. And the inputs are getting more expensive. I might be happy to stop upgrading cars right here, and wait on the hydrogen or whatever the next technology is.
07-03-2008, 03:17 PM
#45
Three Wheelin'
0-100 in 9.6 seconds is 996 turbo territory. Top Gear did video showing an x51 car vs. an R8. The X51 just barely pulls (it was a C4s) about the same as Carrera S pulled the R8 in another video. The difference between X51 and a standard Carrera S is not enough to really be more than a couple car lengths or couple tenths at higher speeds.
There is a video of a standard carrera S on the road course vs X51. X51 could not overcome the difference in driver skill.
The facelift laps the ring at 7:50, I don't think you understand just how far beyond X51 performance that is.
The facelift is simply a better all around package, and you are overstating X51. The X51 is not as quick as a 996 GT3 which it would need to be in order to be in the facelifts ballpark.
Regarding the wine, it depends on the vintage. You can buy a 200 dollar bottle of a good wine that is past the drinking window. Or you can buy a 200 dollar first growth from a poor vintage. Wine is a completely different subject that does not exactly apply, a whole different world really.
There is a video of a standard carrera S on the road course vs X51. X51 could not overcome the difference in driver skill.
The facelift laps the ring at 7:50, I don't think you understand just how far beyond X51 performance that is.
The facelift is simply a better all around package, and you are overstating X51. The X51 is not as quick as a 996 GT3 which it would need to be in order to be in the facelifts ballpark.
Regarding the wine, it depends on the vintage. You can buy a 200 dollar bottle of a good wine that is past the drinking window. Or you can buy a 200 dollar first growth from a poor vintage. Wine is a completely different subject that does not exactly apply, a whole different world really.
and why would X51 overcome driver skill? I got to the track and see 944 turbos with excellent drivers beating the snot out of guys with 997's..!! it wouldn't overcome driver skill.. its meant to be used by a *skilled* driver...
Road and Track March 2005 - Carrera S did the 1/4 in
12.3 sec @ 114.8 mph... your are correct that it is in turbo territory... and the X-51 option gets you to 125 mph in 1 second quicker!... do not go extrapolating 1/4 mile times on this statement either...
secondly... your ring time of 7:50 is one with PDK vs the time of a Carrera S.... I don't think we have a ring time of an option x51 Carrera S... in any case its irrelevant cause the cars are different... different brakes... different tranny... possibly even different gear ratios... but I don't know that for sure... we'll see..
the X-51 is not overstated... go drive one... observe the bottom end torque and the smoothness beyond 5000 rpm... you just have more punch and drivability...
an X-51 Carrera S is a ROCKET SLED and on the track it *is* a match for a 996 turbo... the turbo is a pig in the corners and is heavy... tough deficit to overcome at the racetrack...
I'd really like to see the torque and hp graphs from the new 385 hp Carrera S motor to put and end to this debate.