Likemystoppie?

Dude man guy. The only people who MIGHT have access to a PDK car would be someone in Germany. And even THEN they might not even make it out of the gate before being shot on sight.


You gotta wait for the newly facelifted/dfi/magicmachine to arrive. Patience myfriend.

MJones

Market Launch 9/20/2008

BTW no paddles
Tiptronic like rockers

mdrums

I surely HOPE the do away with the Tip like rockers because at the track it is so easy to accidently hit the worng way on the rocker. Paddles or just a stick like in the 997 GT3RSR would be best.

cgfen

Not true.
I recently spoke to a So. Cal. dude / man / guy that works for PCNA that has driven one @ Weisach.
I'm just looking for more info

but thanks for the input anyway.

cheers

Craig

Likemystoppie?

Exactly. He WORKS for PCNA. They're not supposed to be saying ****e. And I know you're seeking more info. Why don't you make a post requesting information from any Renn peeps who reside in Germany?

Cheers.

jumper5836

Tiptronic like rockers, suck big time. I would never buy a car with them. Paddles are the only way to go. Right gear up, left gear down.

JamesT7

I like you am curious about the pdk. Like others have mentioned I have also driven several F1 style paddle shifters. My first was in a 360 Modena. I hated it and vowed I would never buy an F1. I later drove a M3 (previous model 2004) that had the SMG trans. I admit initially I did not care for it. I ended up driving both a manual 6spd and a SMG back to back for longer test drivers. I came to respect and even slightly like the SMG. I ended up buying a M3 with SMG. Now I do have to say it was my daily car to commute in.

Recently I drove both a 6spd manual F430 and an F1 F430. The F1 on the F430 is truly amazing. It shifts better and faster than anything like it I have driven. The question what would I buy. As in the example of the Ferrari, the Ferrari would never be my daily commuter more my weekend car I would buy a manual as there still is nothing like the way it feels to make perfect shifts both up and down and I personally find it more involving and pleasurable to drive.

The other big question you are asking is durability and maintenance. Here it is down to the owner as well as the build quality of the design. In the F1 / SMG type transmissions the design is to allow a certain amount of slipping with the clutch. These transmissions are called automated manual transmissions or AMT. As the name states it is a manual that is operated by a computer. It shifts faster than we can and allows us to shift at times or points we would otherwise never chance if we had to do the shifting. This does lead to wearing the clutch faster and specially in city driving. Where there is greater need for slipping of the clutch.

In the case of Porsche's PDK. It seems that the technology is better and more advanced as to how the transmission works is different from the F1 / SMG style. If you are considering the PDK because you want to be able to drive it both in rush hour traffic as well as out for a country drive then it makes sense. Realize there will be potential for more wear and expense owning it.

If you have the chance to pick up EVO magazine the May edition there is a good article describing these transmissions. In the end it is down to what works best for your situation. I like others am waiting to experience the PDK and would not order a car with it before I could drive a car with PDK.

Le Chef

The biggest issues (IMHO) with these transmissions are:
The visceral experience and sense of accomplishment with a stick shift
The higher maintenance costs associated with automated manual gearboxes.

I like stick shift, not because I'm a superstar at it, but because I get a sense of involvement. When I drove a Aston AMV8 with their box, Audi TT with DSG, M3 with SMG, a 360 with F1 they all felt faster than I could shift, but I felt detached from the process.

A friend (sample of 1) who owned the 360 F1 replaced it with a 430 stick shift for the same reason, and because he had already gone through 2 clutches in under 30,000 miles!

I'm sure Porsche have learnt from all this, but you;re still left with that question of can they make you feel connected and do you, rather than the car, get a sense of accomplishment when you shift.

I'm curious and I'm looking forward to trying pdk, but it will take a lot to want to keep my left foot still.

JamesT7

One other thing the article in EVO stated was that 80% of europeans own manual transmission cars. I thought that was interesting that even with great technology they still prefer manual transmissions over the automated manual transmissions.

Thanks.

997, esq

European cars tend to be econo cars with small engines. That likely explains manual transmission usage. DSG is only available on some, higher end cars like Audis, etc.

That being said, I think it is way to early to get DSG in a Porsche. I'll wait until they work out the kinks before even considering one. Even then, I just like manual transmissions and it will take a lot for me to give up the clutch.

JamesT7

Well yes most euro cars are smaller engines and they have higher taxes and fuel cost than we do. But still euors like manuals for the same reason some of us do too. Do any of you remember the last several years of production of the 928 in the USA? Most where automatics and not manuals. I forget the percentage but it was extremely high. I remember looking for a manual and it was almost impossible to find.

Thanks

cgfen

Thanks for the thoughtful input.
I do subscribe to EVO, generally the best english language enthusiast mag IMO.

The June edition of AUTOMOBILE magazine has an excellent article describing the differences between;
Manual automatics = F1, SMG
Dual Clutch auto's = PDK , DSG
Standard manuals = you already know
Conventional Automatics = Tiptronics and the much beloved 727 torqueflights from my mopar muscle car days

cheers

Craig

Bob Rouleau

A few observations:
1) I have driven the Audi A3 with DSG. It works well although it still insists on upshifting at or near the rev limit. It does shift fast and does so smoothly. It is far superior to the F1 box on the ferrari.

2) My F430 had the F1 paddle shifter. In auto mode the shifts were lazy - inferior to a good automatic. In manual mode the shifts were fast but brutal, especially in race mode. Colm was smarter than me, he went for the manual box. If I had to do it over again, I would also choose the manual box.

3) BWM is switching to the DSG box now that the Audi exclusive is over. It will no doubt be better than the very unpleasant SMG gear box they previously used.

4) I fear that DSG will become the only transmission offered in a few years because it will be more popular than the manual. In addition, trying to meet CAFE standards will be easier with the automatic. See my wife's Cayenne GTS 6spd - the gas guzzler tax is $1,000 MORE than the Cayenne Turbo - the auto box does better on the test cycle than a manual.

5) The torque converter transmission may well come back. The latest AMG Mercedes uses a hot-rod version of the highly respected MB automatic and I am told it shifts fast, matches revs and does everything you'd want while still using some form of torque converter. Manufacturers of torque converter automatics aren't going to roll over and die just because Borg-Warner has the DSG gearbox.

5) I wonder if the DSG/PDK weighs more than a manual. I suspect it does. Another negative. Having lived with both I prefer the more involving manual box but I have a feeling that in the near future we will all be driving two pedal cars.

eqs

That will be a sad day, if that is true Bob - but you may be right. There is no substitute for a 6 spds flexibility and the satisfaction one gets from a perfect heel and toe downshift though I must admit.

Way back in '04 R&T talked about this and other gearhead technology and interestingly noted that BorgWarner DSG saw perhaps a 5% better fuel economy than an auto and a 15% better diesel economy because at low rpms diesels produce tq and conventional plantetary gearsets don't.

It is indeed a brave new world as tech continues its inevitable movement forward - but I still like my short shift 6

Cheers guys, good thread

MAB Badgerbimmer

I have both a BMW M3 with SMG and an Audi A3 3.2 with DSG. I would not call the SMG unpleasant if used properly. SMG is clearly not intended to be used in auto mode, driven in manual mode it works perfectly and is awesome on a race track. On the other hand DSG is so smooth in auto or manual you don't even know it is shifting, in fact it is much smoother than an auto tranny. The irony is that DSG is so smooth you feel a bit disconnected from the process. That said the choice of DSG is the right one for Porsche.