RMS Question
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From: Back in the OC
Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
I don't know the history between the two of you but even when I don't get along with someone I find it beneficial to try and explain something rather than call someone an idiot incapable of understanding.
Btw, thanks for going through the trouble of putting together your informative posts complete with photos. I'm sure there are many here who will appreciate it. Maybe 99firehawk can post similar pics of a 3.8L 997 engine, if he feels like going through as much trouble you did.
Are you a Porsche technician as well? Just curious about your 'technical guru' avatar tag.
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Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
What I don't understand is how you can machine the crankcase afer the bearing cage has been installed and the engine assembled? (If I'm missing something obvious please don't hesitate to point it out).
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Originally Posted by OCBen
Oh, I never called him that. His posts speak for themselves. I just wanted to give you a heads-up in case you thought you were dealing with someone on your level.
Absolutely GLAD to have my posts speak for themselves.
Which level are we talking about? I know you (and I and 99% of the people on this board) would never be hired at Porsche as engineers.
Talking about the amateur/hobbiest level? That's great! I'm absolutely glad to have my posts speak for themselves..., get it? Nice how you jump in from nowhere and start trashing anything I say; you don't even have corrections or a counter argument!
Quit harassing me.
BTW, just for fun: I like your "level" in your post where you agrue against the use of jackstands saying us$20 Chinese-made wheel ramps are sufficient for working under the car. LOL
Drifting
Joined: May 2006
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From: Another Ex pat Brit in SoCal
Interesting....
Apparently, buying a newer Porsche (997) doesn't automatically make you the sort of individual who can hold a civilized conversation!
Either way - for those of you still basking in the greater Porsche glow, believing that they have your best interests at heart rather than profit margins - sorry to burst your bubble.
Your 997 has the same basic issues as the 996 & 986 when it comes to RMS - namely that the design leaves the engine prone to developing RMS and IMS leaks over time.
Newer RMS seals make this happen less frequently, but the issue is still there - time will tell how many are eventually effected as the 997 power plant ages.
It's cheap enough for Porsche to fix under warranty, rather than re-design the engine, or do a complete recall of existing units in the field.
As for the rest of the mud-slinging cr@p - sort yourself out kids - each side is as bad as the other - in fact, you're probably more similar than you'd care to admit, and that's why you keep on at each other ad nauseam.
Apparently, buying a newer Porsche (997) doesn't automatically make you the sort of individual who can hold a civilized conversation!
Either way - for those of you still basking in the greater Porsche glow, believing that they have your best interests at heart rather than profit margins - sorry to burst your bubble.
Your 997 has the same basic issues as the 996 & 986 when it comes to RMS - namely that the design leaves the engine prone to developing RMS and IMS leaks over time.
Newer RMS seals make this happen less frequently, but the issue is still there - time will tell how many are eventually effected as the 997 power plant ages.
It's cheap enough for Porsche to fix under warranty, rather than re-design the engine, or do a complete recall of existing units in the field.
As for the rest of the mud-slinging cr@p - sort yourself out kids - each side is as bad as the other - in fact, you're probably more similar than you'd care to admit, and that's why you keep on at each other ad nauseam.
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From: Back in the OC
Originally Posted by MMD
Not a very good example for a Rennlist Member, Self-Proclaimed Rennlist 997 Forum leader...
Originally Posted by MMD
Absolutely GLAD to have my posts speak for themselves.
Show me where I have ever proclaimed myself 997 Forum leader and I will gladly paypal you $100.00. Should be pretty easy for you if you are in the habit of speaking the truth. But if you were lying again this will prove to the thousands here that you indeed are in the habit of posting misinformation, and shouldn't be trusted. And this little challenge will be an excellent proof of that.
What happened at that favorite forum of yours? Did they finally catch on to you?
Technical Guru
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From: USVI
Originally Posted by OCBen
Just curious about your 'technical guru' avatar tag.
Originally Posted by MMD
It's too expensive and you say complicated (apparently) for Porsche to do this.
Drifting
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From: Another Ex pat Brit in SoCal
Jason,
I believe that the issue of concentric opening is only a small part of the RMS issue - specifically the feature that has lead to engine replacements under warranty.
The vast majority of RMS issues have occurred where seals have either worn on the crank, or the crank has sat in one offset position for a long time causing deformation of the seal, and hence a leak. (People who don't drive their cars often!)
It's the lack of support of the long shaft at this point that leaves 997, 996 and 986 engines prone to some eccentric movement of the shaft, and hence excessive wear and/or distortion of the seal.
New seals are more elastic, and hence seem to adjust to the variations without leaking as often.
I believe that the issue of concentric opening is only a small part of the RMS issue - specifically the feature that has lead to engine replacements under warranty.
The vast majority of RMS issues have occurred where seals have either worn on the crank, or the crank has sat in one offset position for a long time causing deformation of the seal, and hence a leak. (People who don't drive their cars often!)
It's the lack of support of the long shaft at this point that leaves 997, 996 and 986 engines prone to some eccentric movement of the shaft, and hence excessive wear and/or distortion of the seal.
New seals are more elastic, and hence seem to adjust to the variations without leaking as often.
Technical Guru
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From: USVI
Originally Posted by cdodkin
The vast majority of RMS issues have occurred where seals have either worn on the crank, or the crank has sat in one offset position for a long time causing deformation of the seal, and hence a leak. (People who don't drive their cars often!)
Originally Posted by cdodkin
New seals are more elastic, and hence seem to adjust to the variations without leaking as often.
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Drifting
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From: Another Ex pat Brit in SoCal
Only the M96 engine onwards has this issue, as this is a design issue with the long unsupported shaft that simply didn't exist in the earlier engines.
996 TT and GT3 use the older 'watercooled' design bottom end, and hence dodge the RMS bullet.
So the RMS stayed the same, but the engine design changed - and the RMS was no longer up to the job.
Hence the development during the life of the 996 of the 997 model PTFE seal as you mention.
The problem with RMS is that it has more than one cause, and the ones that got attention were the ones that required engine replacements.
These are I believe the minority - the majority of RMS replacements are simply seal swaps, where the shaft has worn the old seal, or deformed it, leading to eventual oil leakage.
This does not require that you replace the engine - in fact it's mostly a cosmetic issue, with little actual negative effect on the car, other than slight oil loss.
996 TT and GT3 use the older 'watercooled' design bottom end, and hence dodge the RMS bullet.
So the RMS stayed the same, but the engine design changed - and the RMS was no longer up to the job.
Hence the development during the life of the 996 of the 997 model PTFE seal as you mention.
The problem with RMS is that it has more than one cause, and the ones that got attention were the ones that required engine replacements.
These are I believe the minority - the majority of RMS replacements are simply seal swaps, where the shaft has worn the old seal, or deformed it, leading to eventual oil leakage.
This does not require that you replace the engine - in fact it's mostly a cosmetic issue, with little actual negative effect on the car, other than slight oil loss.
Drifting
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From: Another Ex pat Brit in SoCal
Originally Posted by Crazy Canuck
There are many examples of GT3s which have suffered from RMS.
Do the same in the 996 forum, you get 85 hits.
That tell you anything?
The 996 GT3 cars use a 964 derived crank case so they don’t suffer the same probs as the later designed 986 (boxster ) & 996 cases & cranks,
i.e. they use the earlier designed conventional rotary seal not the hard plastic RMS which fails.
So the very very few RMS failures in these cars should not be confused with the general 996/986 RMS failures.
It's not the same deal, not the same part, not the same issue.
Burning Brakes
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I still don't get why people **** the bed when they see a 997 with an RMS leak. Early cars were fitted with the old seal, fact. Another fact is the new seal is much, much improved so just take the thing in and have it fixed.
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From: USVI
Originally Posted by cdodkin
The problem with RMS is that it has more than one cause, and the ones that got attention were the ones that required engine replacements.
Originally Posted by cdodkin
So the RMS stayed the same, but the engine design changed - and the RMS was no longer up to the job.
Originally Posted by cdodkin
Only the M96 engine onwards has this issue, as this is a design issue with the long unsupported shaft that simply didn't exist in the earlier engines.
Originally Posted by PTEC
I still don't get why people **** the bed when they see a 997 with an RMS leak. Early cars were fitted with the old seal, fact. Another fact is the new seal is much, much improved so just take the thing in and have it fixed.
People automatically assume all M97 based engines have the newer style seals but they don't and not everyone knows that?