RMS Question
#17
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago area, IL USA
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Originally Posted by Ronnie
Where is this (mis)information coming from? Porsche marketing / sales department? Are there figures supporting this? Or was the 996/986 even worse?
I read and hear so many people who think that RMS is no longer an issue / less of an issue for 997, which is not true if you look at the numbers of 997 still being treated.
I read and hear so many people who think that RMS is no longer an issue / less of an issue for 997, which is not true if you look at the numbers of 997 still being treated.
No less than Bruce Anderson in the new (June) Excellence mag commented on this; page 20 in the Tech Notes section. Bruce mentions that the first design of the Porsche tool 9699/1 - the crank position / concentricity check tool - didn't have a relief hole, and could get hung up when checking crankshaft / case concentricity because the tool was so tight... so they drilled an 1/8" hole in the tool to vent air behind it...
Bruce then goes on to say that "...one wonders if the frequency of engine replacements before the tool was refined didn't help condemn the M96 engine in the eyes of many Porschephiles."
So - the number of 996 engine replacements could have been exaggerated. Bruce then goes on to say that "...it should be noted that even some 987s and 997s have experienced RMS failures."
In my humble opinion, "some" failures in the M97 motor beats the Hell out of his earlier quote: "My best guess is says RMS problems affect between 50 and 100 percent of the (M96 motors), but it all depends on who you ask."
Guys, I love you all dearly, but I cannot believe that Porsche GmbH would allow such an expensive issue to continue to occur across a type change. You shouldn't believe it, either...
Just MHO. I'm not an automotive engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...
-don
#18
Originally Posted by 99firehawk
excactly why there is so much chicken little syndrome. The internet is a breeding ground for misinforamtion
Why don't you correct my "misinformation?" Because _you_ don't know what you're talking about.
I subscribe to and read "Excellence," and "Panorama."
That's where I get my info on RMS.
The engine _should_ be machined (like I explained) for concentricity, until it is it will continue to experience the RMS failure.
Do the research and learn about the RMS.
There. Feel better?
#20
Technical Guru
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by MMD
The engine _should_ be machined (like I explained) for concentricity, until it is it will continue to experience the RMS failure.
Originally Posted by MMD
Because _you_ don't know what you're talking about...
Last edited by JasonAndreas; 04-29-2007 at 02:40 AM.
#21
Banned
Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
Where was it written that the M96 engine is not machined after casting? If the gear carrier is moving (and that is what) ends up allowing oil to seep past the RMS I don't think you can blame QC nor can you introduce an additional boring/machining step to workaround the issue.
Go back and read Brad's message. I don't think he meant for you to take the chicken little comment personally? He is one of the few posters that wrenches on the 996 and 997 for a living so he might know something about them.
Go back and read Brad's message. I don't think he meant for you to take the chicken little comment personally? He is one of the few posters that wrenches on the 996 and 997 for a living so he might know something about them.
And whenever anyone calls him on it he backpeddles and refuses to admit he was wrong. After all, he knows more than engineers and Porsche technicians because he subscribes to magazines.
Of course all cast components on an engine get machined in order to establish the interface between mating components. But don't waste your time trying to make him understand that. It's like the old saying about trying to teach a pig to sing - you waste your time and it annoys the pig.
#22
Originally Posted by MMD
Why don't you correct my "misinformation?" Because _you_ don't know what you're talking about.
I subscribe to and read "Excellence," and "Panorama."
That's where I get my info on RMS.
The engine _should_ be machined (like I explained) for concentricity, until it is it will continue to experience the RMS failure.
Do the research and learn about the RMS.
There. Feel better?
I subscribe to and read "Excellence," and "Panorama."
That's where I get my info on RMS.
The engine _should_ be machined (like I explained) for concentricity, until it is it will continue to experience the RMS failure.
Do the research and learn about the RMS.
There. Feel better?
I Just subscribed, maybe now i can finaly figure out what that rms thingy really is
#23
Originally Posted by OCBen
Those of us who know MMD know better than to believe anything he ever says.
#24
Everything you wanted to know and need to know about the RMS:
http://www.renntech.org/forums/index...ic=6731&hl=RMS
It's a definitive essay on the RMS problem from Renntech.
Your "Leader" will of course claim the essay is full of sh*t because I refer you to it. Right, Ben? Whadda guy!
http://www.renntech.org/forums/index...ic=6731&hl=RMS
It's a definitive essay on the RMS problem from Renntech.
Your "Leader" will of course claim the essay is full of sh*t because I refer you to it. Right, Ben? Whadda guy!
Last edited by MMD; 04-29-2007 at 01:45 PM.
#25
Originally Posted by OCBen
Of course all cast components on an engine get machined in order to establish the interface between mating components.
#26
Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
Where was it written that the M96 engine is not machined after casting? If the gear carrier is moving (and that is what) ends up allowing oil to seep past the RMS I don't think you can blame QC nor can you introduce an additional boring/machining step to workaround the issue.
I'm too busy to find the reference to the fact that Porsche racing engines do not have RMS failures because, unlike production engines, they are machined for concentricity of the crank around the RMS.
Read my freekin' post and don't misquote me. Every fool knows there's considerable machining of any crankcase casting for proper clearance of journals, bearings etc..
#27
Banned
Originally Posted by 99firehawk
I Just subscribed, maybe now i can finaly figure out what that rms thingy really is
__________
_____________________
Oh, make sure you don't let your magazine subscriptions expire either.
#28
Banned
Originally Posted by MMD
Why don't you STFU and go attack someone else; maybe find some gang members on a street corner to harrass?
Judging by your profanity laced reaction I'd say the truth hurts.
Remember what I told you. There are quite a few knowledgeable individuals here on Rennlist who will call you on it and take you to task whenever you post the misinformation you're so fond of doing. This is not like that other board you like to frequent so often where you seem to "know" what you're talking about just because nobody there seems to know any better than anyone else. In a situation similar to the blind-leading-the-blind, the fool who yaps the most among other fools is deemed the smartest. Keep that in mind if you wish to appear smart and intelligent.
Oh, if I were you I'd be a little cautious in my replies. The last time you were banned for mouthing off with profanity like you're doing right now it was for a whole month. The next time may likely be longer and possibly permanent. Maybe that's what you're working on based on your rant posts here.
#29
Originally Posted by OCBen
Oh, if I were you I'd be a little cautious in my replies. The last time you were banned for mouthing off like you're doing right now it was for a whole month.
Holy Sheet! Grow up.
Here's me coming down to your level:
You got banned how many times for attacking and insulting people? At least twice that I know of. Not a very good example for a Rennlist Member, Self-Proclaimed Rennlist 997 Forum leader and rocket scientist.
I'm done. Wow. Unbelivable!
#30
Technical Guru
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by OCBen
Those of us who know MMD know better than to believe anything he ever says. So don't waste your time getting frustrated trying to explain anything to him. He's one of those who likes to pretend he knows when he clearly doesn't. He says things just for the sake of making it seem like he knows what he's talking about, and often misleads others with his misinformation in the process.
Originally Posted by MMD
Read my freekin' post and don't misquote me
Originally Posted by MMD
The engine _should_ be machined (like I explained) for concentricity, until it is it will continue to experience the RMS failure.
Originally Posted by MMDd
I'm too busy to find the reference to the fact that Porsche racing engines do not have RMS failures because, unlike production engines, they are machined for concentricity of the crank around the RMS.
964/GT3/TT
M97 (#14 is the equivalent that is bolted inside the engine)
The crankcase halves are still fixtured the same way and machined (I will try to find some photos showing this.) And there is still the possibility of movement between the two halves of the crankcase so people would (in earlier incarnations of the 964/GT3/TT crankcase) shuffle pin them (insert dowels) to prevent it. And of course they can still suffer from an actual seal failure (here's a photo from one of mine).
Originally Posted by mmd
Everything you wanted to know and need to know about the RMS:
Last edited by JasonAndreas; 04-29-2007 at 07:48 PM.