Flat-8 Could it work???
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Three Wheelin'
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From: Chicago
Flat-8 Could it work???
One of those odd thoughts you get in the middle of the night. Bear with me! VW developed the narrow angle VR6 engine for the Golf and Corrado because of the need for more power, more refinement, but also because of a lack of space under the hood for a normal V6. This design has gone on to be adapted and used in other VAG models in the group.
Could Porsche develop two narrow angle 4 cylinder blocks that are joined together horizontally to give a kind of flat-8 that would look like a flattened Southern Cross/St Andrew's Cross if viewed from behind.
The engine in theory would be marginally longer than the flat-6 but not by much, as the cylinders would overlap as they do in the VR6. The engine would be taller, but again not by much because the angle would be agan something like 15 degrees as in the VR6. Cylinder heads and valve gear trains would be shared as in the VR6.
Any engineers care to speculate if this could be a solution to the need for more power for the 911?
MTIA
Could Porsche develop two narrow angle 4 cylinder blocks that are joined together horizontally to give a kind of flat-8 that would look like a flattened Southern Cross/St Andrew's Cross if viewed from behind.
The engine in theory would be marginally longer than the flat-6 but not by much, as the cylinders would overlap as they do in the VR6. The engine would be taller, but again not by much because the angle would be agan something like 15 degrees as in the VR6. Cylinder heads and valve gear trains would be shared as in the VR6.
Any engineers care to speculate if this could be a solution to the need for more power for the 911?
MTIA
Advanced
Joined: Jun 2005
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porsche is making 415hp on the N/A GT3 and turbo's are being tuned to ridiculous amounts.. I don't think they have run out of ideas just yet.
IMO, the engine is as much of an icon as the body .. I don't think we will be seeing 8cylinders in the 911.
IMO, the engine is as much of an icon as the body .. I don't think we will be seeing 8cylinders in the 911.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Chicago area, IL USA
Originally Posted by Le Chef
One of those odd thoughts you get in the middle of the night. Bear with me! VW developed the narrow angle VR6 engine for the Golf and Corrado because of the need for more power, more refinement, but also because of a lack of space under the hood for a normal V6. This design has gone on to be adapted and used in other VAG models in the group.
Could Porsche develop two narrow angle 4 cylinder blocks that are joined together horizontally to give a kind of flat-8 that would look like a flattened Southern Cross/St Andrew's Cross if viewed from behind.
The engine in theory would be marginally longer than the flat-6 but not by much, as the cylinders would overlap as they do in the VR6. The engine would be taller, but again not by much because the angle would be agan something like 15 degrees as in the VR6. Cylinder heads and valve gear trains would be shared as in the VR6.
Any engineers care to speculate if this could be a solution to the need for more power for the 911?
MTIA
Could Porsche develop two narrow angle 4 cylinder blocks that are joined together horizontally to give a kind of flat-8 that would look like a flattened Southern Cross/St Andrew's Cross if viewed from behind.
The engine in theory would be marginally longer than the flat-6 but not by much, as the cylinders would overlap as they do in the VR6. The engine would be taller, but again not by much because the angle would be agan something like 15 degrees as in the VR6. Cylinder heads and valve gear trains would be shared as in the VR6.
Any engineers care to speculate if this could be a solution to the need for more power for the 911?
MTIA
I think that two opposed "VR4" motors would have crankshaft issues - going to be tough to get 8 rods and 5 main bearings in that limited length. But I'm sure that it could be worked out... <g>
If you think about the standard 8 / 10 / 12 cylinder flat motors - they have LOOOONG crankshafts and many main bearings.
I think that Porsche has a lot more room to move with the current flat-6... not sure that it would take add'l "zylinders" to make that happen...
-don
Racer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 350
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From: Huntingdon Valley, PA
With all the latest advacements in materials engineering, F1 engines now have the stroke twice as small as the bore(997 stroke 77, bore 100, F1 stroke 45, bore 90) and with many other achievements squeezing 900+ hp out of 2.4 liter engine. I think that even with 3.6L, flat6 porsche has got room for years of improvements.
Banned
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: Back in the OC
Originally Posted by Le Chef
Flat-8 Could it work???
Originally Posted by Le Chef
The 911 will never have a flat-8. Porsche has stated this so many times it sounds like a broken record. You don't need a flat-8 to get more performance.
FSI will add hp, lighter internals and higher rev limit will add hp. Two small low end turbo's (see VW and BMW for how this works) will deliver far greater torque. And then you redesign the flat-6 so it's far lighter thus improved power:weight ratio.
And let's not forget truly lightening the car by using more exotic materials to save weight and improve performance.
A flat-8 would destroy the balance of the car, make it heavier and likely no faster, and confirm
Porsche engineers as plain lazy.
Sometimes less really is more...
FSI will add hp, lighter internals and higher rev limit will add hp. Two small low end turbo's (see VW and BMW for how this works) will deliver far greater torque. And then you redesign the flat-6 so it's far lighter thus improved power:weight ratio.
And let's not forget truly lightening the car by using more exotic materials to save weight and improve performance.
A flat-8 would destroy the balance of the car, make it heavier and likely no faster, and confirm
Porsche engineers as plain lazy.
Sometimes less really is more...
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,199
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From: Houston, Texas
They have made a flat 8 before (904GTS) so they have the technology, for that matter they also have experience with flat 12s (917) hmmmmm.... But I suspect they would stay with the flat 6, it already makes plenty of power and if the displacement is bumped up to 3.8-4.0 even more power would be available. But how much is really enough? I think 415/480 is plenty IMHO.
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Pro
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: SAN CARLOS, CALIFORNIA
Hi,
Airplanes also use flat 4 and 6 cylinder motors. I think
I read an article that talked about the blance of the motor.
A flat eight vibrates alot more then a flat six. Most people
relate to a v twin harley as a real shaker. I would like
to see an article on the Audi w twelve. This motor turns
two v sixes into a w twelve.
I think all these configurations must look into the vibration
of the crank shaft.
Paul
Airplanes also use flat 4 and 6 cylinder motors. I think
I read an article that talked about the blance of the motor.
A flat eight vibrates alot more then a flat six. Most people
relate to a v twin harley as a real shaker. I would like
to see an article on the Audi w twelve. This motor turns
two v sixes into a w twelve.
I think all these configurations must look into the vibration
of the crank shaft.
Paul
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,303
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From: Saint Petersburg
Originally Posted by jumper5836
It would cost them to much to replace production of the flat-6 with a flat-8.
I think it would be better off finding ways to make lighter.
I think it would be better off finding ways to make lighter.
lighter doesnt sell as well to the masses - more hp sells
is what it is
Last edited by robbonds; Feb 15, 2007 at 04:36 PM. Reason: typo
Pro
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 540
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Originally Posted by PAULSPEED
Hi,
I think
I read an article that talked about the blance of the motor.
A flat eight vibrates alot more then a flat six. Most people
relate to a v twin harley as a real shaker. Paul
I think
I read an article that talked about the blance of the motor.
A flat eight vibrates alot more then a flat six. Most people
relate to a v twin harley as a real shaker. Paul
You can theoretically calculate the smoothest engin configs.
I think inline 6 (or multiples of this) are the smoothest... at least in theory.
Also i heard F1 engines became really rough with vibrations this year when they moved from the V10 to the V8 configs.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Nov 2006
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Originally Posted by robbonds
and thats a 3.6L - imagine what they could do with the 3.8l
GMG in Socal told me that they do a 3.8L stroker kit.... what's the difference? does anyone know... what is a stroker kit anyways? they said that the car pulls like crazy........ just a thought,....
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: good old England
would it still have RMS?
seriously though, I believe it will be marketing and 'management' rather than engineering / technical reasons that stop anything other than a flat 6 going into the rear of a 911.
seriously though, I believe it will be marketing and 'management' rather than engineering / technical reasons that stop anything other than a flat 6 going into the rear of a 911.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,057
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From: Germany
I think with the way Porsche is going the real facto will be what the cost is to create a motor to provide X amount of horsepower. When technology out cost the development of a new engine then we will have a new engine till that day look for small increases to current horsepower with modifications to existing engine..