Oil change at 2000 miles?
12-12-2006, 03:54 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by OCBen
Recommended by me. 
How could Porsche possibly recommend that and not be in blatant contradiction to the owners manual?
Actually there are quite of few articles that I've come across that make that very recommendation, and at least one was posted here in this forum. But any mechanical engineer worth his salt will make the same recommendation.
It's a known and understood fact that rotary components of engines, though precisely machined, are nevertheless manufactured within acceptable plus or minus tolerances. During the wear-in process these components are worn down naturally until they find their true centers of rotation with respect to their mating components. Once they do, the efficiency goes up, horsepower goes up, and break-in is effectively over.
The wear-in process is effectively the final machining stage where parts are honed to perfection. Think about that for a minute. And the byproducts of this machining process are the fine metal particles that can be seen in the oil. I for one provided empirical proof of this.
Now, the question you must ask yourselves is do you want to continue driving your car, knowing these metallic particles are floating in your oil and coming between engine components, and wait until 20,000 miles for your first oil change to dump these metallic particles out?
Some of you may be quick to point out that it's the job of the filter to trap these harmful metallic particles and thus prevent them from harming the engine. Well, what if the filter in your car happened to be a defective one that slipped through quality control? It could happen. Are you willing to risk the life of your engine on the integrity of a paper filter? Do you feel lucky?
Ideally, an engine would run best in an open lubrication system. Fresh oil from an endless source would be pumped through the engine (after preheat of course) and dumped out along with the products of combustion and other debris. But to make an engine practical it must operate in a closed lubrication system. And so petroleum engineers have continuously improved oils so that they can last as long as they can before needing to be dumped out.
The "ideal" engine will run forever, as there will always be a layer of fresh oil between parts and no parts will ever come in contact with each other and no engine wear will result. The life of the practical engine is largely dependent on the quality of the oil - as any oil manufacturer will tell you.
Changing the oil frequently is thus beneficial to the engine. Changing it not often enough will cost you much more than the oil changes would have.
How could Porsche possibly recommend that and not be in blatant contradiction to the owners manual?Actually there are quite of few articles that I've come across that make that very recommendation, and at least one was posted here in this forum. But any mechanical engineer worth his salt will make the same recommendation.
It's a known and understood fact that rotary components of engines, though precisely machined, are nevertheless manufactured within acceptable plus or minus tolerances. During the wear-in process these components are worn down naturally until they find their true centers of rotation with respect to their mating components. Once they do, the efficiency goes up, horsepower goes up, and break-in is effectively over.
The wear-in process is effectively the final machining stage where parts are honed to perfection. Think about that for a minute. And the byproducts of this machining process are the fine metal particles that can be seen in the oil. I for one provided empirical proof of this.
Now, the question you must ask yourselves is do you want to continue driving your car, knowing these metallic particles are floating in your oil and coming between engine components, and wait until 20,000 miles for your first oil change to dump these metallic particles out?
Some of you may be quick to point out that it's the job of the filter to trap these harmful metallic particles and thus prevent them from harming the engine. Well, what if the filter in your car happened to be a defective one that slipped through quality control? It could happen. Are you willing to risk the life of your engine on the integrity of a paper filter? Do you feel lucky?
Ideally, an engine would run best in an open lubrication system. Fresh oil from an endless source would be pumped through the engine (after preheat of course) and dumped out along with the products of combustion and other debris. But to make an engine practical it must operate in a closed lubrication system. And so petroleum engineers have continuously improved oils so that they can last as long as they can before needing to be dumped out.
The "ideal" engine will run forever, as there will always be a layer of fresh oil between parts and no parts will ever come in contact with each other and no engine wear will result. The life of the practical engine is largely dependent on the quality of the oil - as any oil manufacturer will tell you.
Changing the oil frequently is thus beneficial to the engine. Changing it not often enough will cost you much more than the oil changes would have.
My recollection was that Doug Hillary said the 20,000 mile mark was perfectly acceptible for daily driven cars, and than weekend drivers should vary their changes by time, instead of mileage.
I have yet to see anyone (that I can recall) who has a better base of scientific and historical knowledge. The rest of us (you too, Ben, if memory serves of your career) are just providing anecdotal information, no matter how logical or swaying it may sound. 
12-12-2006, 03:56 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by gpjli2
There are individual differences between engines. I changed M3 oil after "breakin", 1200 miles. It came out pristine with no visible debris and the same color it went in. My friend did his and the oil was grey and had just visible metallic particles throughout. Driving styles were similar.I have no idea why one engine runs in cleaner than another although you might assume it has to do with bearing tolerances, esp with the E46 engines. Whatever the reason, I do not understand the resistance to one "extra" oil change over the life of a car even if it may benefit some engines more than others.
Interetingly, BMW does NOT change the fluids on non-M cars; instead, they espouse the ludicrous "lifetime fill" crapola. Can you imagine driving your car at 100k miles with the same tranny and axle fluid that was in it new from the factory?
I just changed the rear diff fluid on my 540 at 15k miles, and you could clearly see the 'gold' metal-flake contamination from the ring & pinion gears suspended in the (foul-smelling) diff fluid.
The commonly accepted belief is that, since BMW provides full maintenance for the first 50k miles, and the bulk of the cars they sell are non-M units, they save a significant amount of $$ by delaying any ill effects of the lifetime fill mantra until AFTER the 50k warranty period. After that, it conveniently becomes the owner's responsibility.
Bottom line (and back on topic)...I would change it NOW, then go on a routine replacement schedule...every 5k/7.5k miles, once a year, etc
12-12-2006, 04:51 PM
#33
Banned
Originally Posted by gravedgr
While that "sounds" very good and logical, I doubt there are very few of us here with the scientific background to back up that kind of argument ....I have yet to see anyone (that I can recall) who has a better base of scientific and historical knowledge.
The reason it sounds "very good and logical" is because it is based on scientific knowledge. Granted, not many of you have the scientific background that I do, and as a service to the community here I try to shed light on those technical matters that fall under my purview of expertise, even though many of you may not be able to corroborate it on your own. And so, yes, I do have the background and authority to back up my statements.
P.S. Detailing is just a hobby of mine. Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else.
12-12-2006, 05:01 PM
#34
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by OCBen
The reason it sounds "very good and logical" . . . . . I do have the background and authority to back up my statements.
12-12-2006, 05:05 PM
#35
Banned
Originally Posted by icon
arrrgh! eewwwwhhh! i think i just threw up a little bit in my throat!
12-12-2006, 07:06 PM
#36
I have 120K on one BMW with no change of the diff fluid, no issues ever using factory recommended maint schedule! THere is no benefit to any manufacturer to suggest that you do anything that would hurt your vehicle and subsequently their reputation!
Notice on this board and many others, that people complain about Porsche being too liberal on their oil change intervals and too conservative on their recommended break-in procedures.
Unless you "prime" the filter cartridge each and every oil change will produce a few seconds of engine operation without any oil flow! So, I think you could make the case that too frequent of an oil change interval would be harmful to your engine! It's your nickel, for me I blindly follow the dumb old manufacturers recommendations.
Notice on this board and many others, that people complain about Porsche being too liberal on their oil change intervals and too conservative on their recommended break-in procedures.
Unless you "prime" the filter cartridge each and every oil change will produce a few seconds of engine operation without any oil flow! So, I think you could make the case that too frequent of an oil change interval would be harmful to your engine! It's your nickel, for me I blindly follow the dumb old manufacturers recommendations.
12-12-2006, 07:16 PM
#37
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[QUOTE=stubenhockert "that too frequent of an oil change interval would be harmful to your engine! "[/QUOTE]
Never mind......I'm not in the the mood for the flames............
Never mind......I'm not in the the mood for the flames............
12-12-2006, 07:47 PM
#38
If this was a leased car, I'd do what it requires to stay within the lease requirements. However, I plan on keeping my S for a long time, so I am going to do changes @ every 5,000 miles. Given how I drive and that I have Mobil 1 in there, 5K is a good, safe number.
That 20,000 mile recommendation sounds crazy to me... Even my FX45 needs an oil change every 3750 miles.
That 20,000 mile recommendation sounds crazy to me... Even my FX45 needs an oil change every 3750 miles.
12-12-2006, 09:33 PM
#40
Originally Posted by stubenhocker
I have 120K on one BMW with no change of the diff fluid, no issues ever using factory recommended maint schedule! THere is no benefit to any manufacturer to suggest that you do anything that would hurt your vehicle and subsequently their reputation!
Notice on this board and many others, that people complain about Porsche being too liberal on their oil change intervals and too conservative on their recommended break-in procedures.
Unless you "prime" the filter cartridge each and every oil change will produce a few seconds of engine operation without any oil flow! So, I think you could make the case that too frequent of an oil change interval would be harmful to your engine! It's your nickel, for me I blindly follow the dumb old manufacturers recommendations.
Notice on this board and many others, that people complain about Porsche being too liberal on their oil change intervals and too conservative on their recommended break-in procedures.
Unless you "prime" the filter cartridge each and every oil change will produce a few seconds of engine operation without any oil flow! So, I think you could make the case that too frequent of an oil change interval would be harmful to your engine! It's your nickel, for me I blindly follow the dumb old manufacturers recommendations.
12-12-2006, 09:59 PM
#41
Banned
Originally Posted by gpjli2
Still, prefilling filter is a good idea despite the fact that Mr Oil Change does not approve
Get your facts straight before making accusations.
12-12-2006, 10:56 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by OCBen
Au contraire, Digger. Allow me to introduce myself.
The reason it sounds "very good and logical" is because it is based on scientific knowledge. Granted, not many of you have the scientific background that I do, and as a service to the community here I try to shed light on those technical matters that fall under my purview of expertise, even though many of you may not be able to corroborate it on your own. And so, yes, I do have the background and authority to back up my statements.
The reason it sounds "very good and logical" is because it is based on scientific knowledge. Granted, not many of you have the scientific background that I do, and as a service to the community here I try to shed light on those technical matters that fall under my purview of expertise, even though many of you may not be able to corroborate it on your own. And so, yes, I do have the background and authority to back up my statements.
Originally Posted by OCBen
P.S. Detailing is just a hobby of mine. Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else.
12-12-2006, 11:46 PM
#43
Pro
I think we are missing the real point in this dissussion, and that is if the girl in Doug's avatar likes high viscosity oils or low viscosity oils to be rubbed on her? Heated, or room temperature?
12-13-2006, 12:11 AM
#44
Banned
Originally Posted by gravedgr
I thought I remembered that you did something scientific, but not in the engine or oil industry - so you're saying you do? I know what Doug did for years. So you're saying you disagree with his assertions.
the 20,000 mile mark was perfectly acceptible for daily driven cars, and than weekend drivers should vary their changes by time, instead of mileage.
As for my credentials (to answer your question directly) one of my degrees is in mechanical engineering. And so, yes, I have explicit in-depth scientific knowledge regarding wear-in and lubrication.
Oh, and I appreciate your not confusing me with that other oil expert. Whew!
12-13-2006, 01:08 AM
#45
Originally Posted by OCBen
Whoa there, Gerry. If you're referring to me, I never said that I don't approve of that. I only said it's not necessary and that I wouldn't recommend it, since the oil sensor is probably not reading accurately, as you mentioned, at startup.
Get your facts straight before making accusations.
Get your facts straight before making accusations.