Your thoughts on Porsche horsepower
12-05-2006, 03:03 AM
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Your thoughts on Porsche horsepower
Just curious to see how other feel about the horsepower output of P-cars compared to others in it's class. It appears that Porsche, for whatever reason, has fallen behind in the power offered in it's various configurations when looking at other performace cars in the same relative price range.
Examples:
Aston Martin DB9 500+
Ferrari F430 500+
MB SL55 500+
MB E55 450+
BMW M5 500+
BMW M6 500+
Corvette LS1 400+
Corvette Z06 500+
Ford Mustang GT500 500+
My feeling is that the base Carrera should be around 400hp, the S around 440hp, the S w/ X-51 around 475, the turbo 500+, the turbo S 550+.
Am I wrong? Is it just my perception? Shouldn't Porsche be leading the pack with power and performance, solely based on numbers on a page they appear to be falling behind.
Don't get me wrong, I can afford to have any of the cars named above, but I choose Porsche for may different reason, handling, styling, heritage, to name a few. I just wonder where Porsche is heading in terms of power and performance when their competitors seem to be moving far quicker (no pun intended).
Your thought?
JFS
12-05-2006, 04:02 AM
#2
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Hey J:
I think Porsche's solution is called the Turbo, and it slots neatly into that list of cars you enumerated. Do I wish my C4S had more HP? Yeah, sometimes. Can I get dusted by some ricer in an Evo 9? Maybe.
Is there another package on the street that provides the balance of overall refinement, power, handling, braking and low maintenance? Nah, I don't think so - regardless of price range.
I think that the new Audi R8 might give the 911 a run for its money. That being said, it will not be a Porsche, and it will not have the soul, or the heritage that this car offers. As somebody said recently on Autoblog, the "***-engine contingent" spent 40 years hammering a ****-poor layout into the perfect sports car. I agree 100%. It's perfect, as far as I'm concerned.
Would I love to have the F430? Sure. Would the M5 make me smile? Absolutely. Could I find a place for a Z06 in my garage? Damn right. But I haven't, and I probably won't until I get a chance to pass judgement on the 998.
If I don't like it, I'll look for an alternative. There's always the Ruf supercharger to take the S cars to 420+ hp if you really need it, and you keep your warranty.
Just MHO,
-don
I think Porsche's solution is called the Turbo, and it slots neatly into that list of cars you enumerated. Do I wish my C4S had more HP? Yeah, sometimes. Can I get dusted by some ricer in an Evo 9? Maybe.
Is there another package on the street that provides the balance of overall refinement, power, handling, braking and low maintenance? Nah, I don't think so - regardless of price range.
I think that the new Audi R8 might give the 911 a run for its money. That being said, it will not be a Porsche, and it will not have the soul, or the heritage that this car offers. As somebody said recently on Autoblog, the "***-engine contingent" spent 40 years hammering a ****-poor layout into the perfect sports car. I agree 100%. It's perfect, as far as I'm concerned.
Would I love to have the F430? Sure. Would the M5 make me smile? Absolutely. Could I find a place for a Z06 in my garage? Damn right. But I haven't, and I probably won't until I get a chance to pass judgement on the 998.
If I don't like it, I'll look for an alternative. There's always the Ruf supercharger to take the S cars to 420+ hp if you really need it, and you keep your warranty.
Just MHO,
-don
Last edited by dstrimbu; 12-05-2006 at 04:04 AM. Reason: Bad spelling! ;)
12-05-2006, 04:23 AM
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Correction: The AM DB9 is 457hp while the F430 is 490hp. You'll also find that many of the cars mentioned above are much heavier (for example the BMWs and MBs are close to two tonnes). Therefore, on a power to weight ratio, the 911 isn't doing too badly. But not well enough. The 997 chassis is based on the 996 chassis that came out in in 1998, when 345 na hp or 420 hp in turbo form were considered adequate.
I think that in terms of engine size, the 911 is very constrained by what fits in the engine bay. An 8cylinder, for example, that could allow more cubic inches and therefore more power, needs a complete chassis redesign that would probably sacrifice most of what's left of the rear seats or add to the car's length. Neither is desirable and it will be interesting to see how Porsche manages to package the next model, rumored to have 8 cylinders. My guess is bigger, fatter and heavier, as usual.
I think that in terms of engine size, the 911 is very constrained by what fits in the engine bay. An 8cylinder, for example, that could allow more cubic inches and therefore more power, needs a complete chassis redesign that would probably sacrifice most of what's left of the rear seats or add to the car's length. Neither is desirable and it will be interesting to see how Porsche manages to package the next model, rumored to have 8 cylinders. My guess is bigger, fatter and heavier, as usual.
12-05-2006, 07:47 AM
#4
I have driven a lot of fast cars, and the Porsche's horses seem a little stronger than others... A lot of my friends driving 400+ hp cars have all said the Carrera S feels like 400 hp.
12-05-2006, 08:06 AM
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Hi Jeff,
I had a CLK500 with 302HP and 340 Lb-Ft of torque. Also tried a SL55and while quick, it felt so heavy and disconnected. Even with the extra torque of that big V8 engine the Porsche is so much more responsive and connected. I think that PAG has done a great job of evolving the the way the sum of all it's parts work together; and to me that is what a sports car is all about. Yes a f430 is amazing, but after sitting behind one in traffic, I couldn't believe how massive it was compared to the P-car. I love being able to scoot this car in and around the behemoths that clog the streets.
BTW: your ex-C4S is doing great...puts a smile on my face everytime I get behind the wheel!
I had a CLK500 with 302HP and 340 Lb-Ft of torque. Also tried a SL55and while quick, it felt so heavy and disconnected. Even with the extra torque of that big V8 engine the Porsche is so much more responsive and connected. I think that PAG has done a great job of evolving the the way the sum of all it's parts work together; and to me that is what a sports car is all about. Yes a f430 is amazing, but after sitting behind one in traffic, I couldn't believe how massive it was compared to the P-car. I love being able to scoot this car in and around the behemoths that clog the streets.
BTW: your ex-C4S is doing great...puts a smile on my face everytime I get behind the wheel!
12-05-2006, 10:15 AM
#6
Originally Posted by Chris from Cali
I have driven a lot of fast cars, and the Porsche's horses seem a little stronger than others... A lot of my friends driving 400+ hp cars have all said the Carrera S feels like 400 hp.
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12-05-2006, 11:15 AM
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Power is under rated for insurance and importing resaons. Porsche is also known for its handleing not for the huge amount of power it has been pushing out. Porsche was never known for the power it has other than the race cars they have made in the past.
12-05-2006, 11:18 AM
#9
Top Gear did a bit on how Porsche uses horsepower more efficiently in the C2S than BMW and Aston in their top cars. Couldn't link here, but I'll post the url:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_rvmNenqrxY
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_rvmNenqrxY
12-05-2006, 11:31 AM
#10
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Originally Posted by Azurro_California_911
Am I wrong? Is it just my perception? Shouldn't Porsche be leading the pack with power and performance, solely based on numbers on a page they appear to be falling behind.
How many of those cars you cited are getting that kind of horsepower from a six banger, hmm? Compare hp per volumetric displacement and see who comes out on top!
Now if you're suggesting that Porsche is not squeezing out as much hp out of these six cylinder engines, well, that's a bold statement.
And if you're wondering why Porsche doesn't throw an 8 cylinder engine in the 911, well, according to Porsche's definition, it wouldn't be a 911 then. And that's been beat to death here too.
You can always buy a CGT, well, maybe not!
12-05-2006, 11:31 AM
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I think the horsepower war is Wayyyyyyyyy over rated, and for me, it's the cars ability to get that power to the ground; more specifically, how it does it.
E63 is one heckofa car.........but it's not like you can take it to the track to do lap after lap on it. Not like a Porsche.
My RC51 only has 131hp (aftermarket full system exhaust and intake) and most bikes of that CC range are in excess of 160hp+.........that's just stupid. 1000X's more power then the average buy needs or will ever use. My RC51, though dated by modern bike terms- is WAYYYY more bike then I'll ever need.
Porsche has lovely power. IMO.
E63 is one heckofa car.........but it's not like you can take it to the track to do lap after lap on it. Not like a Porsche.
My RC51 only has 131hp (aftermarket full system exhaust and intake) and most bikes of that CC range are in excess of 160hp+.........that's just stupid. 1000X's more power then the average buy needs or will ever use. My RC51, though dated by modern bike terms- is WAYYYY more bike then I'll ever need.
Porsche has lovely power. IMO.
12-05-2006, 11:31 AM
#12
you also have to remeber that peak power numbers sell cars but power under the curve wins races.
With the h 6 the flat torque and power curves make up for alot of acceleration without the big peak numbers.
With the h 6 the flat torque and power curves make up for alot of acceleration without the big peak numbers.
12-05-2006, 11:47 AM
#13
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If you bought a Porsche for HP you are in the wrong section. They never had high HP figures. After all, it's a flat 6 cylinder engine,--not an 8 or even a 12. Everyother car you compare the Porsche to has at least 8 cylinders. You're worried about nothing. Aren't you having enough fun with it as it is? If you're worried about straightline acceleration out on some boulevard,--take it where it thrives,--on some mountain passes. Toss in some 10,000 ft shear drops and THEN you have the Porsche environment. Any whimp can challenge you at stop lights.
12-05-2006, 12:21 PM
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I think most here are interested in the bottom line performance and not what the number are. Whether the 997S has 355, 381, or 400 is not relevant if given the whole package it is the top performing car in its class. Me, I laugh at the "horsepower wars" and tip my hat to Porsche for staying focused on the whole car.
12-05-2006, 01:53 PM
#15
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I agree with RonCT 100%. Does it excite you to have 700 hp if it comes in a 4500 pound sedan (i.e CLS63)? It's about the performance of the total package, the hp figures are just for marketing purposes.
I drove a Lotus Elise this weekend, and its 190 hp is well employed in its 1900 lb chassis. The Boxster S matched its performance nicely, and still maintained its edginess while offering a whole lot more useful packaging and comfort. I think Porsche does an excellent job of upgrading creature features while keeping their cars spry, fun to drive, and class leading in all-around performance.
I drove a Lotus Elise this weekend, and its 190 hp is well employed in its 1900 lb chassis. The Boxster S matched its performance nicely, and still maintained its edginess while offering a whole lot more useful packaging and comfort. I think Porsche does an excellent job of upgrading creature features while keeping their cars spry, fun to drive, and class leading in all-around performance.