Hurley Haywood on the tip
10-24-2006, 05:10 PM
#61
Rennlist Member
I wouldn't mind having a nice tip on the track simply because I suck at downshifting properly while i'm braking at 120 mph. On the street though when i'm just having fun a tip would seem far too boring. A lot of the enjoyment that I get on the street is from shifting manually.
My vote is for tip on the track (simply because I suck) and without a doubt 100% manual on the street.
My vote is for tip on the track (simply because I suck) and without a doubt 100% manual on the street.
10-24-2006, 07:03 PM
#62
Originally Posted by Alan Smithee
Enough to make up for the poor gearing of the 5-speed Tip vs 6-speed manual in a N/A 997? Doubt it.
I was at CA Speedway two weeks ago running with a Cayman S (manual). Had no problem catching it in every session, as I was faster into and out of the turns. However, I could not gain any ground pulling onto the straights, even with slightly better power- and torque-to-weight ratios. Reason? Gearing of the 5-speed automatic...there's a big gap between 2nd and 3rd that leaves you out of the powerband. I'll say it again, the Tiptronic is simply slower than the manual; it's a less efficient transmission that is not as well matched with the motor as the 6-speed, and it weighs more. No amount of left-foot braking can make up for that.
I was at CA Speedway two weeks ago running with a Cayman S (manual). Had no problem catching it in every session, as I was faster into and out of the turns. However, I could not gain any ground pulling onto the straights, even with slightly better power- and torque-to-weight ratios. Reason? Gearing of the 5-speed automatic...there's a big gap between 2nd and 3rd that leaves you out of the powerband. I'll say it again, the Tiptronic is simply slower than the manual; it's a less efficient transmission that is not as well matched with the motor as the 6-speed, and it weighs more. No amount of left-foot braking can make up for that.
Unfortunately this argument is academic until tests are done by someone like Schumy.
10-24-2006, 10:10 PM
#63
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Eggplant Cab
Dhinkle is right. Without more data, you can say for certain. Cayman S I've found to be more agile and carry speed better thus faster out of most corners except the tighter ones due to the lack of LSD. If he's leaving you behind with equal exit speed, then a few factors may explain it. It has mods that give him over 310hp. You were in the wrong gear exiting etc etc. There is no arguing that the tiptronic would be slower than the stick. I think the contention is how much slower and would the club racer be able to exploit it consistently.
Unfortunately this argument is academic until tests are done by someone like Schumy.
Unfortunately this argument is academic until tests are done by someone like Schumy.
10-24-2006, 11:37 PM
#64
Here's what I think after 2 years driving a tip at HPDE.
http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Drivi..._at_track_days
Shoot away...
http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Drivi..._at_track_days
Shoot away...
10-25-2006, 12:57 AM
#65
Originally Posted by Alan Smithee
I give up. You guys are keyboard racing here while attempting to debunk the only one providing a real on-track scenario. I'll be at Streets of Wilow in two weeks with POC if you want more real scenarios. Until then you can hypothesize here and stroke each others egos with your wicked-fast automatics in this thread without me.
I think Total911 is going to do a test on tiptronic vs manual on 993 soon. Not sure if it's on a track but it'd be interesting nonetheless. Even if it is 95 technology tiptronic.
10-25-2006, 09:23 AM
#66
Instructor
I have been fortunate enough to progress from an E46 BMW M3 (SMG) to a 996 C4 (Tip) to a 997 C2S (Manual) as my last three cars.
I thought the SMG would be the best compromise with a semi-manual paddle gearbox. Great fun, great at speed, but the system was very "jerky" at low speeds and most passengers simply didn't like the ride.
I do a fair bit of town driving, so opted for a 996 with Tip, and loved it, but at times felt like I was not very "involved" with the drive. It was smooth, and overall I was set to continue with another Tip. Then I took a 997 manual for a test drive and realised the difference, while actual performance differences may be minimal, the sensation of driving, involvement in the process immediately got the smile on my face.
I have had quite a few auto cars, and the Porsche Tip is amongst the best, sat in a 15 minute traffic jam, you really appreciate the benefit of a tip box, and I can quite understand why it appeals to so many. But if you have the energy and the variation in driving routes, then without a doubt the Manual is more involved and feels much more responsive.
I would never criticize a tip owner, they make perfect sense on modern busy roads, but I am recently converted and can honestly say the experience driving a manual is well worth the ache in my left leg. I won't be switching back until my joints tell me I have to.
I take the point ref track days, an average driver would probably be quicker in a Tip as they have lest to concentrate on, I do 3-4 a year in my 964 C2 (Manual) and on occassions, get my gear selection wrong when under pressure, yes I might be quicker with a Tip, but for me a trackday is about improving my own driving (and lap times) against my best efforts last time. I don't care who is quicker than me, just as long as I am quicker than I was the last time I was out on track, to that end, the choice of gearbox is irrelevant, and either can provide a suitable personal challenge on the track.
Al.
I thought the SMG would be the best compromise with a semi-manual paddle gearbox. Great fun, great at speed, but the system was very "jerky" at low speeds and most passengers simply didn't like the ride.
I do a fair bit of town driving, so opted for a 996 with Tip, and loved it, but at times felt like I was not very "involved" with the drive. It was smooth, and overall I was set to continue with another Tip. Then I took a 997 manual for a test drive and realised the difference, while actual performance differences may be minimal, the sensation of driving, involvement in the process immediately got the smile on my face.
I have had quite a few auto cars, and the Porsche Tip is amongst the best, sat in a 15 minute traffic jam, you really appreciate the benefit of a tip box, and I can quite understand why it appeals to so many. But if you have the energy and the variation in driving routes, then without a doubt the Manual is more involved and feels much more responsive.
I would never criticize a tip owner, they make perfect sense on modern busy roads, but I am recently converted and can honestly say the experience driving a manual is well worth the ache in my left leg. I won't be switching back until my joints tell me I have to.
I take the point ref track days, an average driver would probably be quicker in a Tip as they have lest to concentrate on, I do 3-4 a year in my 964 C2 (Manual) and on occassions, get my gear selection wrong when under pressure, yes I might be quicker with a Tip, but for me a trackday is about improving my own driving (and lap times) against my best efforts last time. I don't care who is quicker than me, just as long as I am quicker than I was the last time I was out on track, to that end, the choice of gearbox is irrelevant, and either can provide a suitable personal challenge on the track.
Al.
10-25-2006, 09:45 AM
#67
Rennlist Member
I am not keyboard racing. I can say from 1st hand experience that you cannot judge entry/exit speeds by the seat of your pants. Any experience racer will tell you that we all have turned laps that we thought were slow and we set personal records at the track (smooth equals speed). Yes, a manual is a more driver involved experience and I favor manuals. Unless you are downloading data on a manual and a tip (like cars) you cannot prove you are quicker (on the other hand, nor slower). Also, no one was remarked to my post on the fact that 997 Cup Cars have sequential gearboxes. I would love to keep it flat at Daytona or the backside of Road Atlanta and be able to shift. Like or not, the world is moving toe sequential boxes. The good news is there will always be many Porsche classics and soon-to-be classics to keep all of us happy.
10-25-2006, 11:07 AM
#68
Nordschleife Master
nobody is talking about sequential gearbox the topic is tip. The other term used for a sequential is "sequential manual transmission". The sequential does not have a torque converter.
10-25-2006, 01:10 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
What I am referring to is the evolution of clutchless performance cars. Tip is definetly different than sequential and the DSG will be better than the tip (also part of the evolution). I still prefer manual myself. My point to the naysayers is a high caliber driver's lap times in a tip can be comparable to a manual and you cannot gauge entrance/exit speeds by the seat of your pants.
10-25-2006, 06:34 PM
#72
bnewport - thanks for the link to your write up!
I am a tip driver. I recently bought a beater w manual tranny to learn. Knowing how to drive a stick will allow me to own a GT3 someday.
For anyone that hasn't driven a tip or SMG, you should try it. It's really not bad. In group drives, I do very well with my tip. I don't think you'll buy a tip if you have a manual. However, it's too bad tip drivers are looked down upon because it's not bad.
For those that do not drive stick, you should learn it. It's a lot of fun!
I am a tip driver. I recently bought a beater w manual tranny to learn. Knowing how to drive a stick will allow me to own a GT3 someday.
For anyone that hasn't driven a tip or SMG, you should try it. It's really not bad. In group drives, I do very well with my tip. I don't think you'll buy a tip if you have a manual. However, it's too bad tip drivers are looked down upon because it's not bad.
For those that do not drive stick, you should learn it. It's a lot of fun!
