lazlo9

Whatever gets you through the night M'lady.

Eggplant Cab

I just do runs at the 'Ring during our annual migration to southern France. I use to do PCA, Barber (BMW years), BMW CCA and a few others, mostly in the late 80s til mid 90s. I am sometimes tempted to hit Laguna Seca once in a while but just prefer family quality time on weekends.
I do know I will probably not buy another manual again. Clutchless gearboxes are just so much better. I ran my CS tip at the ring last year for 8 laps. Only in 3 corners did I wish for a lower 2nd or 3rd. Of course the extra weight and gearing makes it slightly slower in the straights. But leftfoot trailbraking and the ability to hit the juice just that bit sooner does make up for some of the lost times.

Alan Smithee

Eggplant, I asked because your comments don't make sense from an experienced driver that's had a 997 automatic on any of the local racetracks. They all have slow corners that will leave you outside of the powerband, and none involve much shifting over a given lap...certainly not enough to have shifting manually slow you down.

Eggplant Cab

Willow Springs and California "DeathTrap" Speedway are probably not the most adept courses for the tip.
However, in general non-track driving (twisty roads etc), which I think is what HH was probably referring to, the difference between transmissions is more psychological than anything else, imho. Perhaps some would like the satisfaction of manipulating a clutch and matching revs successfully etc. I like the ability to leftfoot brake and throttle out. I don't understand what the name calling will ever achieve and why it's necessary to be so derogatory towards someone who doesn't share their passion for stick shifts.

Alan Smithee

Haywood's quote provided by the original poster states that only a pro driver is faster with the manual. Given the added weight, parasitic losses, and taller gearing, that just isn't true. If the driver is proficient with a manual, he/she will be faster.

No name calling here...to each his/her own...as I said before, I have a Tiptronic. My issue is with people that defend it based on it somehow being faster or better than the manual for any other reason than convenience.

500

I've always believed that larger displacement or forced induction engines with lot's of low end torque are fine with auto/manumatics and smaller displacement engines that are lighter on torque or have it's maximum torque in the mid to upper rpms are best suited to a manual.

It's been a few years since I've had a manual gearbox and it's a bit of a chore in city driving (the buzzing in my clutch pedal doesn't help the experience ), I do love blipping the throttle while downshifting and I find the smooth action of the Japanese 6 speed gearbox Porsche has been using a pleasure to operate. I've driven the tip version of the 997 and found the standing start acceleration just not there compared to the manual car. The tip does help the new twin turbo achieve better 0-100 #'s as it allows the turbos to stay on boil vs. the manual version. In all honesty I just could not buy a 911 with the current version of the tip. Now if the pdk that's supposedly due soon offers the same 0-100#'s for the NA 997/998's as the manual and isn't jerky like the SMG boxes, I could be convinced to forego the extra "pedal and stick".

Alan Smithee

I wouldn't race a 997 stick driver for pinks if I was you...you know that being AWD, Tiptronic, and a convertible that you have the heaviest N/A 997 variant, right? And that's without dubs.

Eggplant Cab

Well then I'd venture he's probably right for the majority of porsche drivers out there. I never really appreciated the ability of autos until in 93 when my porsche broke down on the way to Laguna Seca, with 2 track days waiting for me. I borrowed my sister's 4 spd automatic Mazda 626 for the track. The 626 had less power, less tire and was heavier than the E30 M3s, E36 325, 328s but coming round the cork screw and tighter corners before the straight, I stayed with or left some faster cars behind. Front wheel drive and left foot braking with a 4sp auto was the biggest reason. Made me rethink the merits of an auto.
And I wasn't referring to you on the namecalling. The nonsensical "girls drive auto" jeers are condescending and misogynistic. I'd wager Sabine Schmitz would kick most non-pro (and many a pro) driver's butts in a tip.

deepdog

For street driving in a Turbo I would tend to agree. You only need to put your foot down to overtake, no need to match revs etc.

For Track driving in a 997S, I don't think I would be as fast in a Tip as in a Stick. used to have a 996 Tip and now have a 997S Stick and have driven both on the track. They tip just feels so slushy and non-reactive. Plus, and I am not the only one to have noticed, at least in the 996 you often find yourself in the wrong gear after a long straight. There's lag to the shifting switch that doesn't notice you have hit the button twice sometimes.

This is pretty much a Troll thread as you knew what the reaction would be to this out of context quote. You aint going to convince anyone to switch either way. You like what you do. Maybe your faster in a Tip, but I'm sure there are enough good enough Porsche drivers that are faster in their sticks than they would be in a tip. For the large majority who dont DE, race etc. it is irrelevant as they are never pushing their cars in any case. For those that do, most of them are pretty experienced and not your average driver, hence would not fall into your 99% category.

Whatever,

MikeBat

I do not think anyone really answered you so....

The Tiptronic is an automatic transmission that the driver can shift manually. It has a torque converter like a vast magoirty of fully automatic transmissions.

DSG, SMG, PDK, F1, S Tronic -- these are manual transmissions without a manual clutch, the car's computer takes care of the clutch actuation. They can be shifted by the driver, or by selecting the "automatic" setting where the car's computer selects the gears.

While they have the same relative goal (no clutch actuation by the driver) they accomplish the goal in two very different ways.

That said, as for what is preferable, whatever floats your boat. I will shift mine manually. It simply adds to the pleasure I get by driving this car, and that is the real goal, my personal pleasure. When Porsche starts paying for my cars, then they can decide how I enjoy them.

Edgy01

This is all well and good,--but check out George Follmer's comments in an interview with Porsche Panarama in the October 06 issue.

DHinkle

I post this as a hardcore manual transmission guy (daily driver is E39 M5; passed on E60 w/smg after three year deposit). I heard from both David Murry and Hurley Haywood at PDE that their #1 choice for a daily driver would be an X50 TT/Cab w/Tip (this was three years ago). Also, they stated laps times are remarably close at Barber in like Tips. Who on this board wouldn't take a 997 Cup w/sequential shifter. Like or not, that is the direction and evolution of performance cars (again, I am a hard-core traditionalist).

DHinkle

I would also add that a good club racer to a pro-level driver can drive a tip as fast or as a manual at the track, especially the 997 (non-turbos included). Left foot braking and throttle control are much easier to execute without the clutch which allows you to get smoother, quicker exit speeds if performed correctly.

Alan Smithee

Enough to make up for the poor gearing of the 5-speed Tip vs 6-speed manual in a N/A 997? Doubt it.

I was at CA Speedway two weeks ago running with a Cayman S (manual). Had no problem catching it in every session, as I was faster into and out of the turns. However, I could not gain any ground pulling onto the straights, even with slightly better power- and torque-to-weight ratios. Reason? Gearing of the 5-speed automatic...there's a big gap between 2nd and 3rd that leaves you out of the powerband. I'll say it again, the Tiptronic is simply slower than the manual; it's a less efficient transmission that is not as well matched with the motor as the 6-speed, and it weighs more. No amount of left-foot braking can make up for that.

The 911 automatic was designed to open the customer base to commuters and others who can't/won't drive a manual, which is great. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, in Porsche's two largest markets (US and Germany), the automatic makes up a huge percentage of sales...I've heard up to half. So it's vital to the brand, and nobody should be disparaged for buying one. It just isn't the optimal choice for performance in the N/A cars.

DHinkle

You bring up a good point but w/o studying data of each car one cannot be certain. The Cayman may have carried more speed through the corner and contributed to the gearing difference. I race a 993 RS which is a momentum car and certainly can relate to HP and gearing differences. I agree that a manual is more fun, I am planted in that camp. I also believe that a tip driven to it's limit is a lot faster than most people realize as Porsche improves it each year.