Question on downshifting
#31
Three Wheelin'
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Originally Posted by Edgy01
The Porsche was designed to be driven 'hard.' The vast majority of Porsche owners are a bit timid about pushing their cars. When in a controlled environment (like an autocross or club track day) go see what that thing can do, but work your way up.
They had one kid who looked right out of college who had a new Audi A3 with DSG who was the 3rd fastest in my group (which had Cayman's 4 911's, Boxsters, and more). I was embarassed seeing him passing all of the Porsche's, so I had to do the brand proud and lap him once - which wasn't easy because that kid was hauling.
#32
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Ron,
Hey that was me in the C2S getting passed- just kidding!
In terms of the heel toe shifting, I got these pedals at http:/www.ultimatepedals.com/. The gas pedal has the extended uppers (not listed on the website, but no problem doing it for you), so you just have to roll your foot to contact it. Before the pedals, I had a hard time getting to the pedal unless I was breaking hard. The pedals are custom made, so they were a perfect fit. I had the guys at Chris's German auto put them on and they did a great job (ask for Joey to do it).
I used to do clutchless shifting in my Alfa Romeo, maybe thats why it only lasted 50,000 miles...
Hey that was me in the C2S getting passed- just kidding!
In terms of the heel toe shifting, I got these pedals at http:/www.ultimatepedals.com/. The gas pedal has the extended uppers (not listed on the website, but no problem doing it for you), so you just have to roll your foot to contact it. Before the pedals, I had a hard time getting to the pedal unless I was breaking hard. The pedals are custom made, so they were a perfect fit. I had the guys at Chris's German auto put them on and they did a great job (ask for Joey to do it).
I used to do clutchless shifting in my Alfa Romeo, maybe thats why it only lasted 50,000 miles...
#33
Three Wheelin'
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Originally Posted by seattle_sun
Ron,
Hey that was me in the C2S getting passed- just kidding!
In terms of the heel toe shifting, I got these pedals at http:/www.ultimatepedals.com/. The gas pedal has the extended uppers (not listed on the website, but no problem doing it for you), so you just have to roll your foot to contact it. Before the pedals, I had a hard time getting to the pedal unless I was breaking hard. The pedals are custom made, so they were a perfect fit. I had the guys at Chris's German auto put them on and they did a great job (ask for Joey to do it).
I used to do clutchless shifting in my Alfa Romeo, maybe thats why it only lasted 50,000 miles...
Hey that was me in the C2S getting passed- just kidding!
In terms of the heel toe shifting, I got these pedals at http:/www.ultimatepedals.com/. The gas pedal has the extended uppers (not listed on the website, but no problem doing it for you), so you just have to roll your foot to contact it. Before the pedals, I had a hard time getting to the pedal unless I was breaking hard. The pedals are custom made, so they were a perfect fit. I had the guys at Chris's German auto put them on and they did a great job (ask for Joey to do it).
I used to do clutchless shifting in my Alfa Romeo, maybe thats why it only lasted 50,000 miles...
#34
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Actually, it sounds alright that the guy in the Carrera was getting passed. At least he didn't run it into a Jersey or Armco barrier on his first time out! As many of the new to 911 folks are discovering, the 911 is a very interesting car to drive at speed in the twisties. Give him time to work up to that whole accelerate out of the turns business!
#35
Pro
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This video has a camera on the drivers legs to show how he down shifts. My problem is that I find it very hard to invert (turn in) the right foot and be able to apply pressure to both the brake and accelorator. Maybe its my seating position? Or is there some special exercise one has to do to avoid straining the foot as I find it very awkward to do? (I am trying to do that rotation right now and it is hard to do).
http://downloads.total911.co.uk/GT3wmv.wmv
http://downloads.total911.co.uk/GT3wmv.wmv
#36
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No, this contortion is not your fault. Porsche just sets up the pedals crappy. Although the 996 and later cars are a bit better, they still can't be heel and toed very easily.
I've always added a higher, wider pedal to my accelerator, which does two things: narrows the gap to the right, and raises the accelerator pedal about a half inch or so. In combination, this makes heel and toe effortless.
And it really is the way the cars are meant to be driven. Why Porsche sets up their pedals so poorly (in my opinion) is a mystery to me.
One other nuance: if you're in a long braking zone, wait until shortly before letting the clutch out to blip the throttle. Otherwise, the revs fall before you engage the lower gear, nullifying the benefit.
I've always added a higher, wider pedal to my accelerator, which does two things: narrows the gap to the right, and raises the accelerator pedal about a half inch or so. In combination, this makes heel and toe effortless.
And it really is the way the cars are meant to be driven. Why Porsche sets up their pedals so poorly (in my opinion) is a mystery to me.
One other nuance: if you're in a long braking zone, wait until shortly before letting the clutch out to blip the throttle. Otherwise, the revs fall before you engage the lower gear, nullifying the benefit.
Originally Posted by Deven
This video has a camera on the drivers legs to show how he down shifts. My problem is that I find it very hard to invert (turn in) the right foot and be able to apply pressure to both the brake and accelorator. Maybe its my seating position? Or is there some special exercise one has to do to avoid straining the foot as I find it very awkward to do? (I am trying to do that rotation right now and it is hard to do).
http://downloads.total911.co.uk/GT3wmv.wmv
http://downloads.total911.co.uk/GT3wmv.wmv
#37
The Penguin King
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I'm getting confused by this thread. Are we saying the car is built to be driven without a clutch, or that it's built do be driven with aggresive downshifting/engine braking? The latter I can buy no problem. I've always driven every car I've ever had like that. Heel/toe double clutch downshift, keep the revs up, and the car ready to go out of the turns or for that matter ready to pass on the freeway. Clutchless shifting on the other hand I've done on rare occaisions, but I've never felt comfotable with it as a regular practice. Too much risk to the vehicle for not enough reward.
#38
Race Car
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Originally Posted by mglobe
I'm getting confused by this thread. Are we saying the car is built to be driven without a clutch, or that it's built do be driven with aggresive downshifting/engine braking? The latter I can buy no problem. I've always driven every car I've ever had like that. Heel/toe double clutch downshift, keep the revs up, and the car ready to go out of the turns or for that matter ready to pass on the freeway. Clutchless shifting on the other hand I've done on rare occaisions, but I've never felt comfotable with it as a regular practice. Too much risk to the vehicle for not enough reward.
There is no need or benefit to ever shifting without engaging the clutch unless you have to.
#39
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Originally Posted by Deven
This video has a camera on the drivers legs to show how he down shifts. My problem is that I find it very hard to invert (turn in) the right foot and be able to apply pressure to both the brake and accelorator. Maybe its my seating position? Or is there some special exercise one has to do to avoid straining the foot as I find it very awkward to do? (I am trying to do that rotation right now and it is hard to do).
Originally Posted by lwilkins
No, this contortion is not your fault. Porsche just sets up the pedals crappy. Although the 996 and later cars are a bit better, they still can't be heel and toed very easily.
I've always added a higher, wider pedal to my accelerator, which does two things: narrows the gap to the right, and raises the accelerator pedal about a half inch or so. In combination, this makes heel and toe effortless.
I've always added a higher, wider pedal to my accelerator, which does two things: narrows the gap to the right, and raises the accelerator pedal about a half inch or so. In combination, this makes heel and toe effortless.
Whatever works for you is the bottom line
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#41
Three Wheelin'
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Originally Posted by Deven
This video has a camera on the drivers legs to show how he down shifts. My problem is that I find it very hard to invert (turn in) the right foot and be able to apply pressure to both the brake and accelorator. Maybe its my seating position? Or is there some special exercise one has to do to avoid straining the foot as I find it very awkward to do? (I am trying to do that rotation right now and it is hard to do).
http://downloads.total911.co.uk/GT3wmv.wmv
http://downloads.total911.co.uk/GT3wmv.wmv
It does just seem like a jab at the gas pedal rather than any sort of rev matching though.
#43
Race Director
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Originally Posted by ronmart
So in the end, what really is the benefit of doing this?
#44
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Originally Posted by ronmart
So in the end, what really is the benefit of doing this?
Someone mentioned double clutch which is really depressing and releasing the clutch as you go out of gear, reengaging as you go into the next gear and releasing again, matching revs in the reengaging phase.
Hope this helps. Really the PDK is so much easier.
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#45
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"Cool - that's how I've seen it done before too (and he was using the clutch pedal). I guess part I was missing was that it is only done on down shifts while the brake is depressed, so that should make it easier than I was making it out to be."
-Since heel and toe by definition means braking while blipping the throttle, you never do it if you aren't braking.
"It does just seem like a jab at the gas pedal rather than any sort of rev matching though." In the video, he is rev-matching for sure. That is a carefully modulated stab at the throttle. It's fast but precise.
-Since heel and toe by definition means braking while blipping the throttle, you never do it if you aren't braking.
"It does just seem like a jab at the gas pedal rather than any sort of rev matching though." In the video, he is rev-matching for sure. That is a carefully modulated stab at the throttle. It's fast but precise.