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i have always heard skip was the school to go to for people intending to race.
i'm sure the skills are universal.
BUT, if you are going to race porsche's (or other closed wheel vehicles) wouldnt it be more beneficial if you learned in one?

seems like one of the things skip is doing is trying to create future income through his race series using his cars.
this may be good for skip but i'd rather race my own car and not be dependent on his cars and schedule.
and if i was going to race my car i would rather learn in my car or something similar.

jeff

allegretto

I must admit Jeff, that I felt this way too to some extent (except for the part about his just doing it to make income.).

After taking the school I can say that I dont feel that way so much (except I'm sure you're corect about making money. He does like money and his instructors are salesmen)

Driving a formula car is over the top in terms of fun and the lessons can be applied and practiced in any car. I'm sure I'll be faster and more in control in any vehicle.

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what the word on the sc???

MJones

Best of all worlds...do them all!!

Nobody that has done both has chimed in yet..., but I have met quite a few people attending PDE who have, and their comments have always been positive. The curriculum of PDE and how it is presented, I believe stands above, as well their instructor base.
Remember PDE is not a "racing school", all the basics are the same, how they are delivered can vary wildly.
Had some classroom presented by Barber at a Road America DE..not so great. as well as some instruction by Skippy's "Taste of the Track" series in '04 at "Big Willow" and was instruced a bad line....
PDE Masters is what you make it, and there are many, besides me who attend multiple times, there was a fellow student in my just completed class who was attending for his 6th Masters..and has attended Skippy and the Ferrari classes in Italy.
Want to race attend Skippy or Panoz.

Want to learn the capabilities of the Porsche..attend PDE.

You have a GT3 and do DE's and believe your really on the edge...take a "Hot Lap" ride in a 997 with any PDE instructor...you will be humbled beyond belief.
How far a "stock" Pcar can be pushed in capable hands is amazing

You will not attend a One, Two or Three day class anywhere and become a Race car driver.

I have attended PDE twice with a "Club Racer" (serious third wheel trailer and cupcar) has participated in the PDE Masters Program, and came away learning fine points of car control at speed.
Another person I know hires David Murry (a working PAID GradAm driver) as a coach at the Glenn and other East coast tracks and does PDE Masters as well.

PDE is "Ivy League" the track, the instructor base and the CV.

Driving is ALL about "Seat Time".

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don't you mean "seat time on the track"?
i heard pde was for "the delicate types"? old retirees and such.

B-Line

icon,

How am I a poseur? I have never once claimed to have raced. I have a lot of seat/track time but never under the clock. I am very forward with that information and would not want anyone to think otherwise..
So I will say it again for those not listening.. I HAVE NEVER RACED..

Truth is, my skills were there, I just didn't want to make the financial commitment to racing. I enjoy DE's. Also, after completing the advanced racing school, I was accepted into and started attenting a graduate school. I was too busy getting my Masters to race. But now, alas, school is over. I will be racing soon.

B

BiggerTwin

They made that very clear at the High Performance Driving School. While many people think you drive an AWD car differently than a RWD car, they stressed that you use the same technique no matter which wheels drive the car and that your inputs don't change drastically. I would have liked to get the Carrera and Boxster on the skid pad to see how the rear-engine and mid-engine weight bias feels in a skid in comparison to the front engine 330i they use in the course.

Alan

allegretto

Some initial birth defects we're ironing out.

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you just havent been around long enough to know when i'm joking!

just kidding with you!

jeff (the smartass)

allegretto

If you read my initial post on this thread you will see that we are mainly in agreement on what the schools teach. However I did not want your comment to go unchallenged.

My experience at Barber School was first rate. Two of the three instructors were very experienced racers with many wins to their credit.

I wasn't there when you were taught the "wrong line", so I cannot directly comment. However, if the closest you have gotten to a checkered flag is a tablecloth in a restraunt, perhaps you misunderstood. Many Big Name racers have come out of the Barber School. Perhaps you know some who have come out of PDE training?

I know, some crusty fellows call it "Skippy School" with a curl of the lip. But many of these guys also try their butts off to hang on my bumper too. Lots of talk, only a few walk at the track...

B-Line

LOL.. Come on, you going to beat me up on that one.

Wasn't meant to be an insult. Just trying to help a potential driver decide which one to choose.
I would hate for someone to go to SKIP who wasn't physically up for it and then feel they had wasted $3500.

B-Line

I have to agree 100% with allegretto on this one. For the most part, the track guys with the skills have done a "skip" school or very similiar equivalent (panoz, bondurant, etc.)
My instructors were amazing. And if someone taught you the wrong line, I can't really comment on that. Never heard of such a thing. Even though there is a hypothetical "fast line" on a track, it's always changing depending on car, conditions, etc. -- I know in my 911 I don't drive the same line as the spec miata or dodge viper. -- And as your skills grow, the line changes as well.
For example, braking zones change, once you start trail braking. Turn in changes, once you start trailing throttle oversteer. Track out changes, depending on how well you acclompished your trail braking and throttle oversteer because now you have more exit speed and no more track space. The faster you go, the wider the arc of your turn. So isn't it possible that they were teaching you the track based on ideal conditions?

I can tell you this though, the later I brake, the later I turn in. And my apex does change depending on how I need to compromise for the following turn. Sometimes you have to late apex for an immediate turn afterword. Or an early Apex..

And, if you are driving a AWD car, and your instructor tells you to go up the embankment on turn 2 at big willow, yes, you have the traction to pull out of it with your front wheels if you get in the slippery marbels. In a RWD car, you might want to stay lower and not get near that danger zone..

See my point?

B

MJones

Try PDE then let's hear about the level and ability of instructors to instruct. Even a Barber instructor who was in attendance was very impressed.

Barber and other schools don't list a roster of their instructors..PDE does:PDE Instructor Roster

I'll never be a race car driver..It's a Wealthy persons hobby, as the addage gos:
"Want to make a small fortune in racing?
Start with a large fortune!

In PRO road racing, a very small percentage of drivers (<10%) can depend upon a regular paycheck. Then there are the "funded drivers" who bring sponsorship and/or money for their seat in the ride.

PDE as I said before is NOT a racing school, and does not pretend to be one.
There are a host of others that are out there that are "Racing Schools"..Three days and you can apply for your SCCA licence, compete in our racing series (for a price), etc.

I have been in attendance with people who have done both and return again to PDE...I think that that says something about the program and how good it is.

Want to learn what the capabilities of the car that you drive are(Porsche). PDE does this VERY well...and it's target market is the regular Joe Porsche owner, or anyone for that matter.

E55AMG

I agree that the one day is not enough - I didn't say that it was. Actually went when I saw an AMEX commercial where they had something going where you could redeem points for this class. Have wanted to do the full course ever since!

icruze

Hey, I heard a similar adage:

"Want to make a small fortune? Start with a large fortune and then attend PDE as many times as MJones"

I was going to join you in Sept. (doing the HPDC then Masters back to back Sept 26-29) but these dates are sold out. Actually, a lot of dates in Sept/Oct are now sold out.

FWIW, I've taken the Skip Barber racing school and really enjoyed it. I thought the instruction was good (not excellent) but the best part is that you get to be on the track. As MJones says, "it's all about seat time." Getting to drive fast on a course and practicing your line will make you a better driver and it's just plain fun.

Which should you choose, PDE or Skip? My answer: it doesn't matter. If you are a car enthusiast (by owning a p-car and being a member of this forum I assume yes), you will enjoy either. They are different experiences that you should have.

Skip allows you to drive an open wheel car only a few inches off the ground. This accentuates the feeling of speed and the g's those little cars can pull is amazing. You get a little taste of what it’s like to be a race car driver.

I plan on attending PDE because I want to see the capabilities of my car and my driving abilities without actually using my car . Also, I've heard from a number of people (including some BMW driving instructors) that the track is terrific and that the instructors are first rate.