PDE vs Skip Barber
#31
Three Wheelin'
These threads kill me because I want to go to both PDE (both classes in one block) and Skip Barber (at Leguna Seca) so bad it hurts!
Now I thought I saw a magazine article that showed the GT3 at PDE for a new course. Was that just marketing balony, or do they really have a course where you take the GT3 out?
I also heard that you always have to follow the leader where you can be held up rather than being able to take hot laps and drive at your own pace (faster or slower)? Is that true? I've done 140 in my Benz on a crappy track, so on a sweet track like they have for PDE I'd love to see 155+.
MJones - what's the fastest you've ever been on the track at PDE?
Now I thought I saw a magazine article that showed the GT3 at PDE for a new course. Was that just marketing balony, or do they really have a course where you take the GT3 out?
I also heard that you always have to follow the leader where you can be held up rather than being able to take hot laps and drive at your own pace (faster or slower)? Is that true? I've done 140 in my Benz on a crappy track, so on a sweet track like they have for PDE I'd love to see 155+.
MJones - what's the fastest you've ever been on the track at PDE?
#32
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I read about Skip Barber school but I had one question:
Do you get to pick the car during the high performance driving lessons? For the price I certainly hope so!
Do you get to pick the car during the high performance driving lessons? For the price I certainly hope so!
#33
Drifting
Originally Posted by kauai_diver
I read about Skip Barber school but I had one question:
Do you get to pick the car during the high performance driving lessons? For the price I certainly hope so!
Do you get to pick the car during the high performance driving lessons? For the price I certainly hope so!
1) Racing School
2) Driving School
Racing School is where you strap into the formula dodge.
Driving School is more like, Skid Pads, AutoX, Defensive Driving techniques. I would have to assume that car selection has more to do with "graduation" that it does with want or desire. For example. I would assume they start you in the dodge neon and once you have passed some basic skills test, they graduate you to a faster car until you reach a supercar.
I would not think they would strap you into a dodge viper or like car to try to teach you how to threshold brake before doing it in a less "touchy" vehicle.
B
#34
Originally Posted by kauai_diver
I read about Skip Barber school but I had one question:
Do you get to pick the car during the high performance driving lessons?
Do you get to pick the car during the high performance driving lessons?
Alan
#36
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by kauai_diver
Thanks you guys, yah I'll just call and ask.
skippy (not as good as pde in birmingham, al) barber web site LINK
#37
Drifting
Originally Posted by icon
they got a web site that gives course descriptions
skippy (not as good as pde in birmingham, al) barber web site LINK
skippy (not as good as pde in birmingham, al) barber web site LINK
lol.
#38
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by B-Line
When you go to PDE in Birmingham, do they spend an hour teaching you how to say "Porsch-e" correctly??
lol.
lol.
prior to acceptance that pretty much screens out those people!
they don't just take anyone with the bucks like skippy!
#39
Drifting
Originally Posted by icon
you have to pass a personal interview before the application committee
prior to acceptance that pretty much screens out those people!
they don't just take anyone with the bucks like skippy!
prior to acceptance that pretty much screens out those people!
they don't just take anyone with the bucks like skippy!
She had decided on the first day that she didn't want to bother to learn how to double-clutch, Heel-n-toe - So she kept her Formula Dodge in third gear for 3 days.
I am not exaggerating at all.. She refused to downshift.. There really are many people out there with more money than brains..
#40
The one day PDE description sounds a lot like the Skip Barber one day High Performance Driving School. Lime Rock Park is Skip's home track and the instructors knew the track and the proper lines. When we started our track session it was wet and the regular dry line was too slick to use. The track had dried toward the end and we then started using the dry line. During our classroom session it started to rain and two cars participating in a local club’s track day spun out in front of us at the Diving Turn entering the Main Straight. I saw John O'Connell hit the wall here in the C6R at last year's ALMS race and a Ferrari and prototype racer both ended up in the same spot this year. Needless to say, I was a bit concerned about doing this in the wet.
I chose to ride with the instructor for the first track session to learn the wet line. From the passenger seat it was a frightening experience. I got in a 330i behind the instructor for the second session and was amazed how easy it was to keep up. I spent the third session in another instructor's car and made sure I was standing in the right spot to get a yellow Carrera for the fourth session.
My son and I are taking the Endurance Karting Racing School in August. Since I don’t have a large fortune to spend on a dedicated race car, I thought this might be a inexpensive way to satisfy my competitive urges. Doing the necessary Skip Barber Racing Schools to race in their league would run around $10,000 including one race weekend. I don’t have the mechanical ability or the time to work on my own car so their series seems to offer a “cheap” and easy way into the expensive world of open wheel formula racing. For now I am happy with the Porsche/Barber driving school approach to learn new skills. What I found was that I am a very competent street driver but need a lot more work if I want to master the track. The people at Skip Barber said that their students with carting experience had better track position than the students who didn’t have it.
I think any of these schools are invaluable for the average driver who knows little about weight transfer and traction issues. For those who already understand the basics they are a fun way to polish your skills.
Alan
I chose to ride with the instructor for the first track session to learn the wet line. From the passenger seat it was a frightening experience. I got in a 330i behind the instructor for the second session and was amazed how easy it was to keep up. I spent the third session in another instructor's car and made sure I was standing in the right spot to get a yellow Carrera for the fourth session.
My son and I are taking the Endurance Karting Racing School in August. Since I don’t have a large fortune to spend on a dedicated race car, I thought this might be a inexpensive way to satisfy my competitive urges. Doing the necessary Skip Barber Racing Schools to race in their league would run around $10,000 including one race weekend. I don’t have the mechanical ability or the time to work on my own car so their series seems to offer a “cheap” and easy way into the expensive world of open wheel formula racing. For now I am happy with the Porsche/Barber driving school approach to learn new skills. What I found was that I am a very competent street driver but need a lot more work if I want to master the track. The people at Skip Barber said that their students with carting experience had better track position than the students who didn’t have it.
I think any of these schools are invaluable for the average driver who knows little about weight transfer and traction issues. For those who already understand the basics they are a fun way to polish your skills.
Alan
#41
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by BiggerTwin
The one day PDE description sounds a lot like the Skip Barber one day High Performance Driving School. Lime Rock Park is Skip's home track and the instructors knew the track and the proper lines. When we started our track session it was wet and the regular dry line was too slick to use. The track had dried toward the end and we then started using the dry line. During our classroom session it started to rain and two cars participating in a local club’s track day spun out in front of us at the Diving Turn entering the Main Straight. I saw John O'Connell hit the wall here in the C6R at last year's ALMS race and a Ferrari and prototype racer both ended up in the same spot this year. Needless to say, I was a bit concerned about doing this in the wet.
I chose to ride with the instructor for the first track session to learn the wet line. From the passenger seat it was a frightening experience. I got in a 330i behind the instructor for the second session and was amazed how easy it was to keep up. I spent the third session in another instructor's car and made sure I was standing in the right spot to get a yellow Carrera for the fourth session.
My son and I are taking the Endurance Karting Racing School in August. Since I don’t have a large fortune to spend on a dedicated race car, I thought this might be a inexpensive way to satisfy my competitive urges. Doing the necessary Skip Barber Racing Schools to race in their league would run around $10,000 including one race weekend. I don’t have the mechanical ability or the time to work on my own car so their series seems to offer a “cheap” and easy way into the expensive world of open wheel formula racing. For now I am happy with the Porsche/Barber driving school approach to learn new skills. What I found was that I am a very competent street driver but need a lot more work if I want to master the track. The people at Skip Barber said that their students with carting experience had better track position than the students who didn’t have it.
I think any of these schools are invaluable for the average driver who knows little about weight transfer and traction issues. For those who already understand the basics they are a fun way to polish your skills.
Alan
I chose to ride with the instructor for the first track session to learn the wet line. From the passenger seat it was a frightening experience. I got in a 330i behind the instructor for the second session and was amazed how easy it was to keep up. I spent the third session in another instructor's car and made sure I was standing in the right spot to get a yellow Carrera for the fourth session.
My son and I are taking the Endurance Karting Racing School in August. Since I don’t have a large fortune to spend on a dedicated race car, I thought this might be a inexpensive way to satisfy my competitive urges. Doing the necessary Skip Barber Racing Schools to race in their league would run around $10,000 including one race weekend. I don’t have the mechanical ability or the time to work on my own car so their series seems to offer a “cheap” and easy way into the expensive world of open wheel formula racing. For now I am happy with the Porsche/Barber driving school approach to learn new skills. What I found was that I am a very competent street driver but need a lot more work if I want to master the track. The people at Skip Barber said that their students with carting experience had better track position than the students who didn’t have it.
I think any of these schools are invaluable for the average driver who knows little about weight transfer and traction issues. For those who already understand the basics they are a fun way to polish your skills.
Alan
Carts are physically very demanding. Get ready for abuse. There is no suspension to take up the bumps and loads, it's all on you.
And yes, a good street driver needs a whole new skill set on the track, but you can employ many of the skills on the street once you learn them. Practice, practice, practice.
Good luck. I'd love it if one of my kids takes up performance driving.
#42
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by MJones
Try PDE then let's hear about the level and ability of instructors to instruct. Even a Barber instructor who was in attendance was very impressed.
Barber and other schools don't list a roster of their instructors..PDE does:PDE Instructor Roster
I'll never be a race car driver..It's a Wealthy persons hobby, as the addage gos:
"Want to make a small fortune in racing?
Start with a large fortune!
In PRO road racing, a very small percentage of drivers (<10%) can depend upon a regular paycheck. Then there are the "funded drivers" who bring sponsorship and/or money for their seat in the ride.
PDE as I said before is NOT a racing school, and does not pretend to be one.
There are a host of others that are out there that are "Racing Schools"..Three days and you can apply for your SCCA licence, compete in our racing series (for a price), etc.
I have been in attendance with people who have done both and return again to PDE...I think that that says something about the program and how good it is.
Want to learn what the capabilities of the car that you drive are(Porsche). PDE does this VERY well...and it's target market is the regular Joe Porsche owner, or anyone for that matter.
Barber and other schools don't list a roster of their instructors..PDE does:PDE Instructor Roster
I'll never be a race car driver..It's a Wealthy persons hobby, as the addage gos:
"Want to make a small fortune in racing?
Start with a large fortune!
In PRO road racing, a very small percentage of drivers (<10%) can depend upon a regular paycheck. Then there are the "funded drivers" who bring sponsorship and/or money for their seat in the ride.
PDE as I said before is NOT a racing school, and does not pretend to be one.
There are a host of others that are out there that are "Racing Schools"..Three days and you can apply for your SCCA licence, compete in our racing series (for a price), etc.
I have been in attendance with people who have done both and return again to PDE...I think that that says something about the program and how good it is.
Want to learn what the capabilities of the car that you drive are(Porsche). PDE does this VERY well...and it's target market is the regular Joe Porsche owner, or anyone for that matter.
I believe that Albert Einstein was a professor at Princeton, but I doubt that Princeton is considered the best school for Physics in the US (Ben???).
Having a great faculty is not the only criteria. If you just want Porsche, go to PDE. There is nothing wrong with that. If you want a race style experience with racer-style machinery, go to Barber. Nothing wrong with that either.
Returning to PDE doesn't mean Skip is bad. Perhaps they want more Porsche time. Anyway, do you spend any time on the track outside of PDE?
#43
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Originally Posted by ronmart
These threads kill me because I want to go to both PDE (both classes in one block) and Skip Barber (at Leguna Seca) so bad it hurts!
Originally Posted by ronmart
Now I thought I saw a magazine article that showed the GT3 at PDE for a new course. Was that just marketing balony, or do they really have a course where you take the GT3 out?
Cayman and Boxster used in skills exercises.. AutoX, Skidpad, etc.
Originally Posted by ronmart
I also heard that you always have to follow the leader where you can be held up rather than being able to take hot laps and drive at your own pace (faster or slower)? Is that true?
Originally Posted by ronmart
MJones - what's the fastest you've ever been on the track at PDE?
Main straight is 1595 ft long, not much time to rest.
The track is a BLAST to drive and a challenge to get right and drive fast!!!
#44
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Originally Posted by MJones
Best of all worlds...do them all!!
Nobody that has done both has chimed in yet..., but I have met quite a few people attending PDE who have, and their comments have always been positive. The curriculum of PDE and how it is presented, I believe stands above, as well their instructor base.
Remember PDE is not a "racing school", all the basics are the same, how they are delivered can vary wildly.
Had some classroom presented by Barber at a Road America DE..not so great. as well as some instruction by Skippy's "Taste of the Track" series in '04 at "Big Willow" and was instruced a bad line....
PDE Masters is what you make it, and there are many, besides me who attend multiple times, there was a fellow student in my just completed class who was attending for his 6th Masters..and has attended Skippy and the Ferrari classes in Italy.
Want to race attend Skippy or Panoz.
Want to learn the capabilities of the Porsche..attend PDE.
You have a GT3 and do DE's and believe your really on the edge...take a "Hot Lap" ride in a 997 with any PDE instructor...you will be humbled beyond belief.
How far a "stock" Pcar can be pushed in capable hands is amazing
You will not attend a One, Two or Three day class anywhere and become a Race car driver.
I have attended PDE twice with a "Club Racer" (serious third wheel trailer and cupcar) has participated in the PDE Masters Program, and came away learning fine points of car control at speed.
Another person I know hires David Murry (a working PAID GradAm driver) as a coach at the Glenn and other East coast tracks and does PDE Masters as well.
PDE is "Ivy League" the track, the instructor base and the CV.
Driving is ALL about "Seat Time".
Nobody that has done both has chimed in yet..., but I have met quite a few people attending PDE who have, and their comments have always been positive. The curriculum of PDE and how it is presented, I believe stands above, as well their instructor base.
Remember PDE is not a "racing school", all the basics are the same, how they are delivered can vary wildly.
Had some classroom presented by Barber at a Road America DE..not so great. as well as some instruction by Skippy's "Taste of the Track" series in '04 at "Big Willow" and was instruced a bad line....
PDE Masters is what you make it, and there are many, besides me who attend multiple times, there was a fellow student in my just completed class who was attending for his 6th Masters..and has attended Skippy and the Ferrari classes in Italy.
Want to race attend Skippy or Panoz.
Want to learn the capabilities of the Porsche..attend PDE.
You have a GT3 and do DE's and believe your really on the edge...take a "Hot Lap" ride in a 997 with any PDE instructor...you will be humbled beyond belief.
How far a "stock" Pcar can be pushed in capable hands is amazing
You will not attend a One, Two or Three day class anywhere and become a Race car driver.
I have attended PDE twice with a "Club Racer" (serious third wheel trailer and cupcar) has participated in the PDE Masters Program, and came away learning fine points of car control at speed.
Another person I know hires David Murry (a working PAID GradAm driver) as a coach at the Glenn and other East coast tracks and does PDE Masters as well.
PDE is "Ivy League" the track, the instructor base and the CV.
Driving is ALL about "Seat Time".
I've done both. I completed the SB racing course at Laguna Seca a few weeks ago and PDE last fall. The SB school was great but there were too many people there. At PDE, we got more lap time, but I think in fairness to Skip, they don't want people losing their concentration in the Formula Dodge. The formula dodge penalizes bad driving, whereas the 911 with PSM on, gives you a false sense of your driving capabilities. You need more time to rest after dricing the formula dodge whereas, the 911 is very comfortable and it's really difficult to screw up.
BTW, someone mentioned that you need to double clutch heel and toe at SB. That is not true, they teach basic heel and toe there, not double declutching.
In conclusion, they are both great . I'm looking forward to going back to PDE to try the Master's Class. I'm assuming you get to drive the car (PSM off)? Is that right MJones?
#45
Three Wheelin'
What - you have to have PSM on for the first course?
I realize people can really screw up so it is good to start with PSM on, but I would think that by the 2nd half of the day it would be reasonable to be running with PSM off.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no daredevil who wants to go out and crash. I just know that from my Porsche Skills Day here locally that the difference between having PSM on and off is like night and day. It is really like driving two different cars, and the one with PSM off is an absolute joy to drive on an autocross.
I realize people can really screw up so it is good to start with PSM on, but I would think that by the 2nd half of the day it would be reasonable to be running with PSM off.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no daredevil who wants to go out and crash. I just know that from my Porsche Skills Day here locally that the difference between having PSM on and off is like night and day. It is really like driving two different cars, and the one with PSM off is an absolute joy to drive on an autocross.