AudiOn19s

No this isn't your typical "Is a black car going to be too much of a pain to maintain" thread.

The question is plane and simple. Have any of you found your black paint to be unacceptably soft and susceptible to marring and scratching?

Background. I run a small detailing business and need some feedback from those of you who own black 997's. I got a call from a new client absolutely distraught with his 400 mile Black 2006 997S. He washed and waxed it for the first time and pulled it out in the sun only to be horrified with what had happened to the paint.

At first I thought that it was a simple case of improper processes and procedures and /or possibly products causing surface marring. Heck I can't even keep my black Audi free of these defects without buffer work every 6 months or so.

In detailing this car I found something VERY disturbing. The paint on this car is Unacceptably soft in my opinion. I've been detailing for 10 years and while I've always known Porsche paint to be soft it's a dream for a detailer to work with as with very little effort you can look like a hero and restore a car to near perfect condition.

This car was different. The bumpers in particular are soo soft that I would polish out scratches and then using a microfiber towel re-scratch the surface of the paint by simply removing the polish. It took several attempts and a very light touch with the most plush and expensive microfibers that I have to remove polish residue from the bumper without inducing more scratching.

7 hours later the car looks new. I can only sympathize for the owner at this point because as I can't even see washing the car with paint this soft without inducing marring and scratching. The metal panels of the body were soft as well but not as bad as the bumpers.

My client has spoken with the local Porsche rep who tested on his own how easily the paint scratched and did the same on another brand new black boxter at the dealer. The rep suggested waiting for a few months to see if the paint hardens some as it ages and offered to respray at least the front and rear bumpers at that point if he's not satisfied with the condition of the paint. I'm not sure how to feel about this. It's as though the rep acknowledges that there's an issue but isn't willing to take actions at this point to correct it.

For comparison sake I volunteered to detail a friends 997 in Seal Gray and found traditional soft Porsche Paint but not on the alarming level of the black car. In researching and digging in my detailing circles I've heard similar stories.

Looking for fellow enthusiasts that own these black cars to see if they feel the same way and if any attempts have been made with Porsche to address the issue.

Andy

ame546

You are speaking of flat black I assume, not basalt black which seems like it would conceal scratches better correct?

AudiOn19s

Correct the non-metalic "flat" Black. I've spoken to a detailer that had his hands on a Basalt black and he found the metallic black paint to be quite durable.

Andy

uzj100

Andy- what you describe is exactly what I experienced the first time I detailed my black S. I'm no paint expert (Deanski, Anthony?) but IMHO there is something definitely different about the bumpers and hood WRT applying product and the results you achieve. I discovered, as you and your client have, that the bumpers need some special attention. My solution was to use much lighter pressure to apply and remove product and to switch to FK1. I think Klasse AIO and HGSG work fairly well too. It seems that these areas may respond to the synthetic/acriylic products better than the standard polishes/waxes?

In any event, the FK1, applied by hand, has given me the results I sought with out any marring or hazing.

Feel free to PM for more details

HTH

OCBen

One thing about the paint that is applied to the plastic bumpers on all cars is the elastic ingredient (can't remember what it's called) that gives the paint the flexibility it needs in order not to crack as the plastic bumper is flexed and restored to shape.

It takes quite a bit of work to remove scratches in these areas. When I colorsanded my black Boxster the bumpers took the longest to buff out because of the flex agent, and it was also the riskiest to do as the heat buildup from the elastic energy came close to burning the paint with my rotary polisher.

Scratches are removed much easier where the paint is fixed and not flexing under pressure, as in these areas.

Deanski

I'll tell you in several weeks as my C2S Black/Black is onvesl now.

However, I too have found that the black is extremely soft and MF towels can scratch if too much effort was used.

I dropped off some Menzerna P085RD to the shop when it arrives so they will use this to prep, and I've seen their work.. all good so no fear! I'm almost tempted depending on sevarity of problems if light, I even go to P21S Cleanser or AIO being that AIO is just chemical cleaning.

The Menzerna P085RD is geared to SRC finsihes, and to remove 2500grit sanding from curing (soft) SRC (Scratch Resistant Coating) like Ceramiclear. Stuff is amazing! Only problem.. can't get it in USA anymore in 32oz. However, Blackfire now sells a consumer version that is produced by license from Menzerna USA and Germany.

Bumper/plastic/urathane paints are VERY soft, use the most care on those as they flex.

I'll keep you informed as the car arrives.

Regards,
Deanski

AudiOn19s

I used IP and a polishing pad to correct and PO85RD with a finishing pad as a follow up. (bummer Im almost out and need to now switch to 106FF) I was initially using Cobra microfibers that would re-scratch the surface removing the residue from the PO85RD. ended up using a very light touch and Pakshak Ultra-Plush towels to finish the bumpers.

Still alarming at how soft it was. The remainder of the car looked worse than my 135K mile Black Audi when I first got the car and again...it only had 400 miles on the clock.

I'm not ruling out dealer prep as part of the issue. Could be that the owner didnt really cause any of this rather he never really looked at the car closely in the sun until after the first cleanup.

That still doesn't explain the overly soft paint.

Andy

Deanski

I know how you feel on the P085RD! Well, at least Blackfire is now the holder of P085RD in the USA. I know we can still get 106FF.

You're right about this paint. I had to use on another black P car DF Towels to finish up and LOTS of QD to break up what was left from polish. This is another reason I'm getting Armorglove installed on my P car. That front air-dam is so damn soft that you think you're gonna wipe off the paint! It takes a very careful touch and LOTS of QD to "flush" the polish off and gently clean up w/o marring. The Pakshak Ultra plush (yellow/gold) is good for this, but I hate wasting these for clean-up. I ran out of this disposable fiber towels which worked even better. Got those from CAR Products in MA, but can't locate them anymore. They were soft, had small holes and did a really good job even after a re-shoot that was just out of the oven! No marring! Damn, I have to find these again!

I'm now washing off polish with dishwashing liquid and QD after lightly. That seem to work as well, maybe better as I was going through way too much QD for a wipe-off. It's a PITA, but it worked.

Let me know your thoughts as well and give it a try next time.

Regards,
Deanski

blk on blk

I have a 4 month old 996 and I witnessd the same thing. I went to extraordinary steps to try and make sure I did not swirl the pain, but still after a couple of washings I could see surface scratched all over the car. I use a high grade lambs wool mit, P21s wash, 100%cotton waffle weave towels to dry, and wash and dry in the direction of airflow over the car, and still see swirls. I have since polished with p21s polish and rewaxed and it helped some, but I can still see some surface scratches. My car only has 2400 miles. I will never get another black car unless it is the Basalt Black Metallic.

ronmart

This is exactly what I was told at a Griots Garage clinic. They said that the bumpers use a flex paint to prevent cracking when the bumper flexes but it is super soft and requires more care. They also said it is much easier to ruin it too, so they said exactly what Ben says here about the poilisher - go easy!

AudiOn19s

Deanski,
Is the Blacfire final polish 85RD? I thought that it was 106FF. I may have to get some. I've gone back to an old bottle of FP (not FPII) and I've been pretty pleased with it lately but it's soo finiky to use that I have to decide on something soon.

Andy

Deanski

That's what I've been told... The Blackfire SRC polish IS P085RD. We can still get 106FF and PowerGloss as well, but Menzerna is reformulating a new type of P085RD soon or already did. They stopped shipping 85RD several months ago. Once again, CMA (Properautocare aka Jon) has made some deal with Menzerna USA to market the product under Blackfire. Same deal as FMJ (not from Menzerna, but licensed).

I think I still have FP as well. And I have the glaze that they made along with a sample of something, but can't remember what.

Going to try the FK1 product line soon to see how well it works and if it's close to or better than Zaino (ooooh that word...that Z word ) in reflective look.

Soon, my C2S will arrive (ONVESL) in Baltimore and then I can play. Dealer crew will be using 85RD and have instructed them to use some prior.

Deanski

CButler

I was already paranoid about the scratches on black. Despite several trips to the dealership at night, under flourescent lighting, to view recent (2004) 996s on the used lot to see how they had held up, I had convinced myself that black was not for me. The cobwebs and scratches on every black (used) car looked like rabid cats had copulated on them. Then, in a rare moment of bravery, I ordered a black 997S this week. I don't really have the appropriate facilities to administer constant polishing. Am I in for a nightmare?

tarpon1

when i read these posts it is evident that there is clearly an advanced "double black diamond" world of car polishing/maintenence out there of which i am not and probably never will be a member due to the fact that i simply don't have the time given the other tasks which require my attention; (i.e.) cut the grass/fields, clean the pool, fix this and that...(my golf clubs have an inch of dust on them...) this is where i could use that little violin icon that we saw last week in a different post...anyways my point is...(finally!)...as an owner of a black on black 997S i have not noticed this issue but it could very well be that it is because i had clear bra installed immediately upon purchasing the car which may have protected/masked this issue. while i do use sheepskin mits and microfiber towels i will readily admit i am a novice in this category and this might be a solution for those of us who don't want to deal with this headache. one other point of note; one tip that i picked up in this forum over a year ago which is very handy when washing the car with a hose is to take the nozzle off so that the water runs off the car without beads...great tip. now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

AirPhoto

Being a car restorer and having done my own paint jobs I had asked the question about when to wax the Porsche (paint curing related questons) because rule for DIY painting is that you wait about 6 months to allow the paint to cure before sealing it in under wax. The response was that 'modern' Porsche paint did not require that cure time. Not sure if that's correct or not, but the paint on the body should not be a problem if its done correctly. For a $90,000 car, I am not impressed with Porsche's paint job. The entire thing has orange peel, typical for cars painted for the masses, but not acceptable for a premium car. It won't be up to where its supposed to be until it gets repainted. Ironically, Porscheboy who had his car vandelized and had his black car entirely repainted, probably has the best looking black car now. Porsche does need to rectify the problem. Acceptable quality on a Ford Escort, not on a Porsche Carrera.