Oil consumption
#77
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WOW, why are you all using so much oil?
#78
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I added 1/2 a quart at 1000 miles, changed oil at 2000, havent added oil since then. i now have 5000 miles. Althought I noticed that the oil level changes on the bar depending on the ambient temp, dont ask me how, but I saw it my self. few day it was in the low 30 s and I checked the oil level in the car it showed low, wtf, when i was in the car, when i got out of the car it was normal. in warmer temp like 50-60 the level is perfect with me in or out of the car so I did not add any oil, and yes the car was level in my garage, same refrence point.
#79
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Originally Posted by mdrums
WOW, why are you all using so much oil?
"It is also not uncommon for a high-performance engine to require a top-up of motor oil every 2,000 miles. (Most manufacturers consider anything better than 1,000 miles between top-ups as "normal.")" The full Q&A can be found at http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/..._in_a_BMW.aspx
Now back to my search for the thermal expansion coefficient. BTW using the thermal expansion coefficient for Benzene (I have no idea how relevant to Mobil 1 this is) a 9 litre volume at 20 degrees C would increase/reduce by 0.11 litres per 10 degree C increase/reduction in temperature. For this reason we should all fill up our fuel tanks just before dawn, because fuel is sold by volume not weight we will get more for our money when the temperature drops.
#83
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My 120,000 mile '88 Carrera uses no oil. But even if it starts to use 1qt for every 1000 miles, I won't care too much. Some of these cars use oil, some don't. Some use a lot. But if it's within spec (follow the manual), then it's in spec. Don't worry about it.
#84
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Originally Posted by snarf
Curious about thermal expansion of Mobil 1 I was searching a Mobil web site for data when I came across this in an answer to a BMW driver's question about drain intervals.
"It is also not uncommon for a high-performance engine to require a top-up of motor oil every 2,000 miles. (Most manufacturers consider anything better than 1,000 miles between top-ups as "normal.")" The full Q&A can be found at http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/..._in_a_BMW.aspx
Now back to my search for the thermal expansion coefficient. BTW using the thermal expansion coefficient for Benzene (I have no idea how relevant to Mobil 1 this is) a 9 litre volume at 20 degrees C would increase/reduce by 0.11 litres per 10 degree C increase/reduction in temperature. For this reason we should all fill up our fuel tanks just before dawn, because fuel is sold by volume not weight we will get more for our money when the temperature drops.
"It is also not uncommon for a high-performance engine to require a top-up of motor oil every 2,000 miles. (Most manufacturers consider anything better than 1,000 miles between top-ups as "normal.")" The full Q&A can be found at http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/..._in_a_BMW.aspx
Now back to my search for the thermal expansion coefficient. BTW using the thermal expansion coefficient for Benzene (I have no idea how relevant to Mobil 1 this is) a 9 litre volume at 20 degrees C would increase/reduce by 0.11 litres per 10 degree C increase/reduction in temperature. For this reason we should all fill up our fuel tanks just before dawn, because fuel is sold by volume not weight we will get more for our money when the temperature drops.
#85
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I found this online at http://www.chevron.com/products/prod...fuel_perf.shtm
Coefficient of Thermal Expansion:
Liquids increase in volume as their temperatures increase. The coefficient of thermal expansion is a measure of the rate of volume increase with temperature. A typical value for the coefficient of thermal expansion of kerosene-type jet fuel is 0.00099 per degree Celsius [(ºC)–1] [(0.00055ºF)–1]. At this rate, one gallon of jet fuel will expand 4.0 percent for an increase in temperature of 40ºC [1.000 gallon at 0ºC (32ºF): 1.040 gallon at 40ºC (104ºF)].
Of course, the relationship is reversible. For example, as jet fuel cools in the aircraft’s tanks during flight, it will occupy a smaller volume than it did on the ground. The coefficient of thermal expansion can be used to calculate the volume decrease.
Coefficient of Thermal Expansion:
Liquids increase in volume as their temperatures increase. The coefficient of thermal expansion is a measure of the rate of volume increase with temperature. A typical value for the coefficient of thermal expansion of kerosene-type jet fuel is 0.00099 per degree Celsius [(ºC)–1] [(0.00055ºF)–1]. At this rate, one gallon of jet fuel will expand 4.0 percent for an increase in temperature of 40ºC [1.000 gallon at 0ºC (32ºF): 1.040 gallon at 40ºC (104ºF)].
Of course, the relationship is reversible. For example, as jet fuel cools in the aircraft’s tanks during flight, it will occupy a smaller volume than it did on the ground. The coefficient of thermal expansion can be used to calculate the volume decrease.
#86
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Originally Posted by Doug Hillary
Hi,
gpjli2 - there is no advantage in using 5w-40. There is a disadvantage if your ambient temperature goes below -25C consistently
When hot (100C) they are both (M1) SAE40 grade lubricants and very similar in viscosity
1999Porsche911 - Please provide evidence that a 15w-50 oil was a Porsche Germany Factory fill! What brand, when and in what engines???
I have NO connection to any Oil Company!
Regards
gpjli2 - there is no advantage in using 5w-40. There is a disadvantage if your ambient temperature goes below -25C consistently
When hot (100C) they are both (M1) SAE40 grade lubricants and very similar in viscosity
1999Porsche911 - Please provide evidence that a 15w-50 oil was a Porsche Germany Factory fill! What brand, when and in what engines???
I have NO connection to any Oil Company!
Regards
Wonder how much Mobil paid for Porsche to exclusively tout the benefits of 0w40!?!?! Ross
#87
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Hi,
rcg412 - well, I can find no evidence that a 15w-50 oil was EVER a factory fill in any Porsche engine made since August 1992 (Technical Bulletin 9213 dated November 3 1992). In this Bulletin it advised that "All engines produced in Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen from August 1992 are now factory filled with SAE5w-40 synthetic oil."
I believe it was a Shell product - a forerunner to Shell Helix Ultra!
If you have evidence that a 15w-50 oil was EVER a factory fill after the late 1980s, please publish the details,
I would like to update my records with this information and so would others!!
In Porsche's "Technische Information (911) 1701 Group 1 No 1/99" (dated 28/01/1999) the following information was provided;
1 - 235 Factory Approved engine lubricants were Listed
2 - Of the 235 Approved/Listed lubricants;
170 were fully synthetic
65 were semi-synthetic
No Mineral oils were listed
3 - Viscosities of the Approved oils follows;
0w-30 - 3 (all fully synthetic, Polar use only) #
5w-30 - 11 (8 fully synthetic & 3 semi synthetic, Polar use only)#
0w-40 - 19 (all fully synthetic)
5w-40 - 118 (113 fully synthetic & 5 semi synthetic)
10w-40 - 63 (57 semi synthetic & 5 fully synthetic)##
5w-50 - 15 (all fully synthetic)###
10w-50 - 5 (all fully synthetic)####
10w-60 - 2 (Castrol fully synthetic products)*
No 15w-50 oils were listed and have not been for some years. Even Shell Helix Ultra 15w-50 fully synthetic oil, which has BMW and Ferrari Approvals and has been marketed around the World for well over a decade was not Approved. Their 5w-40 version was and is!
In Approving and Listing these oils Porsche had to consider not only the quality of the oil but general availability as well. Some oils were available World wide (WW) and specific to other such diverse markets as Dominican Republic, Morocco, Russia (etc) and specific Asian markets
By the time the next Bulletin was issued many oils had been de-listed and the total was halved - as follows;
# - SAE30 oils fail to meet Porsche's HTHS 150C minimum viscosity criteria. No SAE30 lubricants are Approved or Listed by Porsche today (except for use in the Cayenne V6 where VW503.00 quality standard is required)
## - This viscosity range has been primarily superceded by 5w-40. It was once the most popular oil in Europe hence its 1999 listing
### - Some of these oils probably had difficulty in meeting Porsche's, some were cross branded products. Only Mobil 5w-50 is Approved and Listed today
#### - This viscosity range is now effectively obsolete
* I assisted with the initial development of this lubricant in the late 1970s and early 1980s
Handbook recommendations are always superceded by Technical Bulletins in the case of Porsche and in the case of all other engine manufacturers too
In engine development, VW-Audi-MAN and BMW use Castrol, MB and some others use Mobil and Ferrari and others use Shell. Developing engines and components is now so costly and some components are so complex it makes great sense to collaborate with suppliers. CAT uses Mobil and so does DD-MTU-MB-VM probably the largest manufacturer of mid to large high speed diesel engines
For instance Castrol's development programme with VW-Audi includes field testing protocols that take several years to reach conclusions from. This is quite normal practice
Regards
rcg412 - well, I can find no evidence that a 15w-50 oil was EVER a factory fill in any Porsche engine made since August 1992 (Technical Bulletin 9213 dated November 3 1992). In this Bulletin it advised that "All engines produced in Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen from August 1992 are now factory filled with SAE5w-40 synthetic oil."
I believe it was a Shell product - a forerunner to Shell Helix Ultra!
If you have evidence that a 15w-50 oil was EVER a factory fill after the late 1980s, please publish the details,
I would like to update my records with this information and so would others!!
In Porsche's "Technische Information (911) 1701 Group 1 No 1/99" (dated 28/01/1999) the following information was provided;
1 - 235 Factory Approved engine lubricants were Listed
2 - Of the 235 Approved/Listed lubricants;
170 were fully synthetic
65 were semi-synthetic
No Mineral oils were listed
3 - Viscosities of the Approved oils follows;
0w-30 - 3 (all fully synthetic, Polar use only) #
5w-30 - 11 (8 fully synthetic & 3 semi synthetic, Polar use only)#
0w-40 - 19 (all fully synthetic)
5w-40 - 118 (113 fully synthetic & 5 semi synthetic)
10w-40 - 63 (57 semi synthetic & 5 fully synthetic)##
5w-50 - 15 (all fully synthetic)###
10w-50 - 5 (all fully synthetic)####
10w-60 - 2 (Castrol fully synthetic products)*
No 15w-50 oils were listed and have not been for some years. Even Shell Helix Ultra 15w-50 fully synthetic oil, which has BMW and Ferrari Approvals and has been marketed around the World for well over a decade was not Approved. Their 5w-40 version was and is!
In Approving and Listing these oils Porsche had to consider not only the quality of the oil but general availability as well. Some oils were available World wide (WW) and specific to other such diverse markets as Dominican Republic, Morocco, Russia (etc) and specific Asian markets
By the time the next Bulletin was issued many oils had been de-listed and the total was halved - as follows;
# - SAE30 oils fail to meet Porsche's HTHS 150C minimum viscosity criteria. No SAE30 lubricants are Approved or Listed by Porsche today (except for use in the Cayenne V6 where VW503.00 quality standard is required)
## - This viscosity range has been primarily superceded by 5w-40. It was once the most popular oil in Europe hence its 1999 listing
### - Some of these oils probably had difficulty in meeting Porsche's, some were cross branded products. Only Mobil 5w-50 is Approved and Listed today
#### - This viscosity range is now effectively obsolete
* I assisted with the initial development of this lubricant in the late 1970s and early 1980s
Handbook recommendations are always superceded by Technical Bulletins in the case of Porsche and in the case of all other engine manufacturers too
In engine development, VW-Audi-MAN and BMW use Castrol, MB and some others use Mobil and Ferrari and others use Shell. Developing engines and components is now so costly and some components are so complex it makes great sense to collaborate with suppliers. CAT uses Mobil and so does DD-MTU-MB-VM probably the largest manufacturer of mid to large high speed diesel engines
For instance Castrol's development programme with VW-Audi includes field testing protocols that take several years to reach conclusions from. This is quite normal practice
Regards
#88
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Originally Posted by Doug Hillary
Hi,
rcg412 - well, I can find no evidence that a 15w-50 oil was EVER a factory fill in any Porsche engine made since August 1992 (Technical Bulletin 9213 dated November 3 1992). In this Bulletin it advised that "All engines produced in Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen from August 1992 are now factory filled with SAE5w-40 synthetic oil."
I believe it was a Shell product - a forerunner to Shell Helix Ultra!
If you have evidence that a 15w-50 oil was EVER a factory fill after the late 1980s, please publish the details,
I would like to update my records with this information and so would others!!
In Porsche's "Technische Information (911) 1701 Group 1 No 1/99" (dated 28/01/1999) the following information was provided;
1 - 235 Factory Approved engine lubricants were Listed
2 - Of the 235 Approved/Listed lubricants;
170 were fully synthetic
65 were semi-synthetic
No Mineral oils were listed
3 - Viscosities of the Approved oils follows;
0w-30 - 3 (all fully synthetic, Polar use only) #
5w-30 - 11 (8 fully synthetic & 3 semi synthetic, Polar use only)#
0w-40 - 19 (all fully synthetic)
5w-40 - 118 (113 fully synthetic & 5 semi synthetic)
10w-40 - 63 (57 semi synthetic & 5 fully synthetic)##
5w-50 - 15 (all fully synthetic)###
10w-50 - 5 (all fully synthetic)####
10w-60 - 2 (Castrol fully synthetic products)*
No 15w-50 oils were listed and have not been for some years. Even Shell Helix Ultra 15w-50 fully synthetic oil, which has BMW and Ferrari Approvals and has been marketed around the World for well over a decade was not Approved. Their 5w-40 version was and is!
In Approving and Listing these oils Porsche had to consider not only the quality of the oil but general availability as well. Some oils were available World wide (WW) and specific to other such diverse markets as Dominican Republic, Morocco, Russia (etc) and specific Asian markets
By the time the next Bulletin was issued many oils had been de-listed and the total was halved - as follows;
# - SAE30 oils fail to meet Porsche's HTHS 150C minimum viscosity criteria. No SAE30 lubricants are Approved or Listed by Porsche today (except for use in the Cayenne V6 where VW503.00 quality standard is required)
## - This viscosity range has been primarily superceded by 5w-40. It was once the most popular oil in Europe hence its 1999 listing
### - Some of these oils probably had difficulty in meeting Porsche's, some were cross branded products. Only Mobil 5w-50 is Approved and Listed today
#### - This viscosity range is now effectively obsolete
* I assisted with the initial development of this lubricant in the late 1970s and early 1980s
Handbook recommendations are always superceded by Technical Bulletins in the case of Porsche and in the case of all other engine manufacturers too
In engine development, VW-Audi-MAN and BMW use Castrol, MB and some others use Mobil and Ferrari and others use Shell. Developing engines and components is now so costly and some components are so complex it makes great sense to collaborate with suppliers. CAT uses Mobil and so does DD-MTU-MB-VM probably the largest manufacturer of mid to large high speed diesel engines
For instance Castrol's development programme with VW-Audi includes field testing protocols that take several years to reach conclusions from. This is quite normal practice
Regards
rcg412 - well, I can find no evidence that a 15w-50 oil was EVER a factory fill in any Porsche engine made since August 1992 (Technical Bulletin 9213 dated November 3 1992). In this Bulletin it advised that "All engines produced in Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen from August 1992 are now factory filled with SAE5w-40 synthetic oil."
I believe it was a Shell product - a forerunner to Shell Helix Ultra!
If you have evidence that a 15w-50 oil was EVER a factory fill after the late 1980s, please publish the details,
I would like to update my records with this information and so would others!!
In Porsche's "Technische Information (911) 1701 Group 1 No 1/99" (dated 28/01/1999) the following information was provided;
1 - 235 Factory Approved engine lubricants were Listed
2 - Of the 235 Approved/Listed lubricants;
170 were fully synthetic
65 were semi-synthetic
No Mineral oils were listed
3 - Viscosities of the Approved oils follows;
0w-30 - 3 (all fully synthetic, Polar use only) #
5w-30 - 11 (8 fully synthetic & 3 semi synthetic, Polar use only)#
0w-40 - 19 (all fully synthetic)
5w-40 - 118 (113 fully synthetic & 5 semi synthetic)
10w-40 - 63 (57 semi synthetic & 5 fully synthetic)##
5w-50 - 15 (all fully synthetic)###
10w-50 - 5 (all fully synthetic)####
10w-60 - 2 (Castrol fully synthetic products)*
No 15w-50 oils were listed and have not been for some years. Even Shell Helix Ultra 15w-50 fully synthetic oil, which has BMW and Ferrari Approvals and has been marketed around the World for well over a decade was not Approved. Their 5w-40 version was and is!
In Approving and Listing these oils Porsche had to consider not only the quality of the oil but general availability as well. Some oils were available World wide (WW) and specific to other such diverse markets as Dominican Republic, Morocco, Russia (etc) and specific Asian markets
By the time the next Bulletin was issued many oils had been de-listed and the total was halved - as follows;
# - SAE30 oils fail to meet Porsche's HTHS 150C minimum viscosity criteria. No SAE30 lubricants are Approved or Listed by Porsche today (except for use in the Cayenne V6 where VW503.00 quality standard is required)
## - This viscosity range has been primarily superceded by 5w-40. It was once the most popular oil in Europe hence its 1999 listing
### - Some of these oils probably had difficulty in meeting Porsche's, some were cross branded products. Only Mobil 5w-50 is Approved and Listed today
#### - This viscosity range is now effectively obsolete
* I assisted with the initial development of this lubricant in the late 1970s and early 1980s
Handbook recommendations are always superceded by Technical Bulletins in the case of Porsche and in the case of all other engine manufacturers too
In engine development, VW-Audi-MAN and BMW use Castrol, MB and some others use Mobil and Ferrari and others use Shell. Developing engines and components is now so costly and some components are so complex it makes great sense to collaborate with suppliers. CAT uses Mobil and so does DD-MTU-MB-VM probably the largest manufacturer of mid to large high speed diesel engines
For instance Castrol's development programme with VW-Audi includes field testing protocols that take several years to reach conclusions from. This is quite normal practice
Regards
You're looking at the wrong TSB's. There was in fact, 15W50 on the approved list. It is even approved in the manual. The 99's were on the road long before date of the TSB you quote. As for proving that 15W50 was the factory fill. My car hit the road in early 1998 and was filled with 15W50.
#89
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Hello,
1999porsche911- as usual I will request again that you provide the "correct" TSBs so that we can all digest the data
The Drivers Manual only shows a viscosity reference chart
In the TSB data (911 Carrera (996)/911 Carrera 4 (996) I referred to, the viscosity chart DOES NOT list or refer to a 15w-50 lubricant. This data was retrospective for all 4,6 and 8 cylinder engines built from 1973!
Please post the TSB data you refer to and any information concerning the Factory's fill!
Thanks
1999porsche911- as usual I will request again that you provide the "correct" TSBs so that we can all digest the data
The Drivers Manual only shows a viscosity reference chart
In the TSB data (911 Carrera (996)/911 Carrera 4 (996) I referred to, the viscosity chart DOES NOT list or refer to a 15w-50 lubricant. This data was retrospective for all 4,6 and 8 cylinder engines built from 1973!
Please post the TSB data you refer to and any information concerning the Factory's fill!
Thanks
#90
Race Car
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Originally Posted by Doug Hillary
Hello,
1999porsche911- as usual I will request again that you provide the "correct" TSBs so that we can all digest the data
The Drivers Manual only shows a viscosity reference chart
In the TSB data (911 Carrera (996)/911 Carrera 4 (996) I referred to, the viscosity chart DOES NOT list or refer to a 15w-50 lubricant. This data was retrospective for all 4,6 and 8 cylinder engines built from 1973!
Please post the TSB data you refer to and any information concerning the Factory's fill!
Thanks
1999porsche911- as usual I will request again that you provide the "correct" TSBs so that we can all digest the data
The Drivers Manual only shows a viscosity reference chart
In the TSB data (911 Carrera (996)/911 Carrera 4 (996) I referred to, the viscosity chart DOES NOT list or refer to a 15w-50 lubricant. This data was retrospective for all 4,6 and 8 cylinder engines built from 1973!
Please post the TSB data you refer to and any information concerning the Factory's fill!
Thanks
All I can tell you is to read all the oil tsb's issued, it states the 15W50 quite clearly on the early ones. You can read all the TSB's at ALLDATA.