Le Chef

A respected UK journalist who recently bought a 997S has since driven a base 997 with PCCB's and reckons it's the better car. His argument is that the base 997 with PCCB's and 18" wheels is carrying significantly less unsprung weight at each corner than the 997S with 19" and PASM, and so both handles and rides better.

If the guy was a known idiot I would pass it off without thinking but he's respected. So has anyone here considered that as an option? (btw I'm still sticking with my plan of ordering a 997S so that's not the reason for the question).

Anyone tried a 997, or 997S with PCCB's?

MTIA

Billy Bob Dibble

My argument is that the Mini Cooper is actually better than the 997 because as it takes a turn it has significantly (SIGNIFICANTLY) less unsprung weight. ;-)

This isn't the case look at the skid pad and track times. The 997S is clearly faster. So if he means better in that you are less likely to go as fast and therefore safer in the base model he is right ;-).

He could be used to driving a lexus and to him a good ride is one that is not stiff...It is hard to discuss stuff like this without a link to the article and who it is. More information would be great on the surface this seems ... dumb.

zacharie

Hi Le Chef,

Your comment is very interesting. May I ask you where could we read the article of the British journalist please? I would really like to read about it and get through his proof of the 997 with PCCB, being better than an 997S.

I don't clearly understand the argument that <997 + PPCB + 18 inches>, which suffices to carry less unsprung weight at each corner than <997S + 19">, suffices to conclude that <the car handles and rides better>. Could you explain or some member of this forum explains that to me please?

Do you have the feeling his comments were constructed on a solid demonstration?

Le Chef

The journalist is Chris Harris from Autocar and it's in his column in the 12/14 issue. His previous car was a Gallardo and he has been their official road test editor...

As to the validity of the argument you would need to know the difference in corner weights of the 18" + PCCB compared to 19" + steel brakes, and the total weight reduction to see how that also affected the power/weight ratio.

If you want to feel the effect of less unsprung weight, take a drive in an Elise!

Stef Scheepers

To complement Billy Bob Dibble's argument: a few weeks ago I took a Boxster S with PASM and 19" to Hockenheim and drove rings around all the Lotus Elises and Opel Speedsters that turned up for the afternoon track time, so the 19" can't be that bad.

Le Chef

Quote from Porsche re PCCB's

"In general the speed and agility of a car will increase as its weight is reduced. The influence of weight is multiplied again if the component is rotating or unsprung. If weight can be saved in these crucial areas, the benefits in terms of handling are immense."

The 997 carries 4.15kg for every hp developed when using PCCB's. The 997S carries 4.00kg for every hp developed when using steel brakes. 0.15kg is pretty close! (Figures from Porsche)

I'm not arguing that a 997S will be faster than an Elise, just the effect of unsprung weight against power should not be dismissed.

Billy Bob Dibble

Le Chef can you qualify "better". I can't read the article (yet?) and I don't know what your point is. The S is faster around the track and has better stats. The 997 in some configurations is lighter, but is still slower around the track, poorer on the skid pad, and slower straightline. So what do you mean better?

Are you saying that people haven't tested the 997 + PCCB and that it would be faster? I think the weight difference in TOTAL is <20 kg. Not enough to overcome the 355 hps and superior torque curve.

Le Chef

Chris's argument is not "faster" though with a 46kg overall weight saving (according to Porsche's figures) the power:weight ratio is close. His argument is a qualitative difference in the way it drives.

"Like any other sane human, when offered 30hp or a set of brakes, I took the stronger engine. Wrong call. If you're about to buy a 911 and like me value the way drives more than the way it looks (ref to less than meaty wheels in fenders), this is the car you should specify. The Carrera with PCCB's, leave it on the smaller wheels, and add whatever toys you fancy for the cabin. The S is a belter (Brit colloquialism for "it rocks") but the cheaper car is the sweeter drive."

Not my words but Chris Harris's. I'm not arguing in his favor, but that he presents an interesting alternative and has some credibility. He is also a sometime race-car driver of some talent.

graham_mitchell

There is a lot more to separate the cars than the unsprung weight. It isn't a reason to get one over the other when the situation is easily changed by replacing the 'S' wheels with something lighter to compensate for the iron brakes.

It may also not be enough of an advantage for the 997 to beat the 997S.

Driveability, on the other hand, is a more subjective quality and each is entitled to is own opinion there.

Regardless of which model one has, it is true that having less unsprung weight will improve handling, braking and acceleration.

(Le Chef: note that brake rotors are made from cast iron, not steel)

Billy Bob Dibble

Can you post the rest of the article or anything that is not subjective (or agrees with posted numbers/stats). For example on my uber turn track that was down hill that you could not reach speeds over 30mph the 997 with PCCB consistently posted times faster than the S. Or..Though it may not come out in actual track times I really liked the feel of the 997 better than the S even if it might be slightly slower. Or...the skid pad for the 997 with PCCB pulled a .98g and the S pulls a .97g.

Le Chef

Chirs does not support his argument with data, which is one of the reasons why I was intrigued to see if anyone else felt the same about the effect of PCCB's on handling and ride.

I would also like to see PAG test track data for a 997 with PCCB's and a 997S with iron brakes. I agree there's maybe a subjective difference in "feel" but the acid test is still going to be comparable data.

ked

I'm not sure it's possible, or relevant, to quantify the writer's idea of "the sweeter ride".

zacharie

Well, I don't want to offend you but perhaps Mr. Chris Harris has simply found the right balance for his needs ["handles and rides better"], i.e. Carrera + PCCB instead of Carrera S + 19 cast iron rims. After all, he's just a human being whom tests cars and appreciate them with a part of subjectivity. What might annoy many of our readers is that objectivity doesn't seem to take the whole part of his article [apparently no figures, or detailed proofs exposed in the article, but we would have to ask to Le Chef if there are any?].
It's true than in the absolute, you will find the S better [give "better" every definition you like on a single basis characteristic] than the base Carrera. You will also have to admit that many drivers, like Mr. Harris with his PPCB option, will prefer the base Carrera to the Carrera S and its 19" rims because to their opinions, it "rides better" or it is sufficient for their needs.

Now this is my own opinion so don't take any offense: I would be curious to know if every "S" drivers justify this extra or make use of it everyday on the road, whence the average driver can't even optimize the power delivered by the base car [I admit that it's a different story if you're on tracks every week-ends]. I have observed so many enthusiasts drivers opting for an "S" rather than the base model, I sometimes don't understand this choice for the same reasons. Don't come to me with the argument "you don't have the financial capacity to buy the S, so you buy the base car", because this is innapropriate when you buy a Porsche. It's the same for the 4S; I am sure that there are so many of you waiting for the 997 C4S, and ready to swap their 997 C2 or C2S which is already so darn good. Why alway looking for something else hypothetically better [now define "better"] when you should be grateful for what you have in your hands?

Le Chef

There are a number of interesting points that come out of this string:

1) The "S" may not be the default choice for everyone. and when an experienced journalist and race car driver and owner of an "S" makes that comment you take note.

2) The 997 is infinitely configurable depending on your wants - from full wood and leather tiptronic to -20mm, sports shifter, sports seats and no sunroof.

3) It would be nice (but unlikely) for Porsche to issue the figues for the various configurations. I know some have been published but Porsche will have figures for other setups for sure.

4) It's highly unlikley that a dealer would be able to demonstrate the differences between the various options, hence the value of fora like this.

5) You can feel the power difference between the base and the "S" but will you be able to use it, and would you miss it if you didn't have it?

Billy Bob Dibble

The thing that has not been said is journalists are trying to sell copy. Saying the 'S' is better doesn't sell more copy. Saying the base is does. I drove both cars (admitedly the base did not have the PCCB) and the S felt better in handling and performance.

Keep in mind from what you are saying so far it may not be the 997 he likes, but instead the PCCB. Based on what you have quoted so far I don't see any reason why the best car isn't the 997S with PCCB. However, I am not changing my order ;-).