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I've frankly lost interest in dabating this any further. I see what works the best in the 10 engines I own vs what I bought them with or what else I've tried in them. I'm going to stop spending my time tryng to share what I know about UOA and convince the nay-sayers - they can use whatever they'd like and are probably going to anyway. There are now literally hundreds of oil threads here for people to search up.
I mean, your own data for your 997 show that Mobil 1, Motul, and Driven all perform the same, you just didn't realize you had to correct for mileage. And as someone who does pretty much all his own work on cars, I'm afraid you're fooling yourself about what all those UOAs can do for you and what they can prevent.
You guys with "M1 has low ZDDP"? Look at those data: the Zn and P levels in the M1 are virtually the same as the Driven DT40 (Mobil specs 1100/1000 ppm fresh, which they publish. Driven specs...oh, wait, they don't publish their specs, or the standards they meet). Like, you've got the data *right there* and you're still thinking M1 has less ZDDP? The main difference I can see is that Driven started adding moly sometime in 2019 (so was it crappy for the seven years they sold it before that?). And believe me I see a LOT of hand waving about moly and what it can do for your engine, but not a lot of data. All the oils performed well, and saying more than that is just wishful-freakin'-thinking and buying into marketing.
Here's the thing: I'm a smart enough guy, but I don't go into a courtroom and try to play lawyer against someone who went to law school. It's not just that I don't know how to practice law, I literally don't know what I don't know about practicing law. Keep that in mind when you try to play engineer.
Great summary here, BTW, by a guy with more experience than you or I. You guys are just playing in the noise with all these UOAs. Do it once if you want, confirm the oil viscosity and your change interval work okay with your engine, and you're done.
Do a few ppm more or less metal mater over the course of a short warranty, probably not. Do they matter over 200k miles - I'd say probably so.
For acidity, you have to send the oil for analysis and request athat the TAN and TBN br run. Once the Total Acid Number exceeds the Total Base Number the oil is acidic
I always enjoy reading these threads because we know how passionate people can be about their oil. I decided I'll finally throw in my thoughts on the subject in general, whether they be useful for someone or not.
1. It's okay to use the oil you feel provides you the best financial protection and/or reliability and to have opinions on why it might do that.*
2. "Statistically significant" is an important phrase for data like this. I don't know the precision of Blackstone instruments but, in general at very low levels, it can be difficult to have a statistically significant difference. Whether you find that to affect your decision or not is up to you.*
3. Without true controls on different vehicles, driving styles, oil changes, etc. it is impossible to know which of the thousands of factors affected the life of the various failed engines. Maybe it was the oil you used. Maybe it was your garage temps and driving style. But it's near impossible to definitively say.*
* All of this assumes we are at least using reputable oil brands of correct weight with reasonable OCIs. So use what you feel works best for you and feel free to recommend that to others. It may help. It may not. But, again, in general, use decent stuff and change it regularly. And we can all check back in at 250K miles and proclaim someone right. ;-)
I've frankly lost interest in dabating this any further. I see what works the best in the 10 engines I own vs what I bought them with or what else I've tried in them. I'm going to stop spending my time tryng to share what I know about UOA and convince the nay-sayers - they can use whatever they'd like and are probably going to anyway. There are now literally hundreds of oil threads here for people to search up.
If anyone needs me to interpret the quantitative data from a report rather than the qualitative rosy description that Blackstone usually paints, feel free to tag me in your UOA post - otherwise, I'm going to ignore the oil posts and hand the baton to those that think they know better.
Pete,
Thanks for your insights and the expertise that you share on this forum.
I always enjoy reading these threads because we know how passionate people can be about their oil. I decided I'll finally throw in my thoughts on the subject in general, whether they be useful for someone or not.
1. It's okay to use the oil you feel provides you the best financial protection and/or reliability and to have opinions on why it might do that.*
2. "Statistically significant" is an important phrase for data like this. I don't know the precision of Blackstone instruments but, in general at very low levels, it can be difficult to have a statistically significant difference. Whether you find that to affect your decision or not is up to you.*
3. Without true controls on different vehicles, driving styles, oil changes, etc. it is impossible to know which of the thousands of factors affected the life of the various failed engines. Maybe it was the oil you used. Maybe it was your garage temps and driving style. But it's near impossible to definitively say.*
* All of this assumes we are at least using reputable oil brands of correct weight with reasonable OCIs. So use what you feel works best for you and feel free to recommend that to others. It may help. It may not. But, again, in general, use decent stuff and change it regularly. And we can all check back in at 250K miles and proclaim someone right. ;-)
.
That's all valid, Rich, and I pretty much agree. Like I said, it's people's own money, if folks want to buy a more expensive oil or do UOAs every change, hey, they can knock themselves out.
My particular passion about this (lol) comes from annoyance at people making definitive technical recommendations based on a misreading of data, a misunderstanding of what certain tests are useful for, or just reading too much marketing. The number of folks on here who insist "xxx brand oil is better" or "xxx brand oil/additive prevents bore scoring" or "M1 is bad for your Porsche" when there's zero data supporting that is incredibly frustrating. If anything the data show the exact opposite: it just don't matter.
Use and recommend what you want, but don't pretend you have evidence that it's actually better or helpful.
Ironman, your evidence so far has been a link to a 15 minute marketing video from Driven, and it's about an issue that isn't relevant to the 997.2 engine, or in any way related to metal wear. So I'm going to trust my own engineering judgement on this one.
Honestly I doubt I have any hope of convincing the true believers in this thread, I'm just screaming into the void about "Internet forum wisdom", lol.
Originally Posted by MrMoose
That's all valid, Rich, and I pretty much agree. Like I said, it's people's own money, if folks want to buy a more expensive oil or do UOAs every change, hey, they can knock themselves out.
My particular passion about this (lol) comes from annoyance at people making definitive technical recommendations based on a misreading of data, a misunderstanding of what certain tests are useful for, or just reading too much marketing. The number of folks on here who insist "xxx brand oil is better" or "xxx brand oil/additive prevents bore scoring" or "M1 is bad for your Porsche" when there's zero data supporting that is incredibly frustrating. If anything the data show the exact opposite: it just don't matter.
Use and recommend what you want, but don't pretend you have evidence that it's actually better or helpful.
I'm sure there's some help you can get for this kind of thing...
It's been an interesting thread, I have learnt a fair bit and I have a degree in automotive Engineering (although left the industry 30 years ago). I am going to try a slightly higher viscosity oil a 5W 50 next time around and see that Mobil 1 5W/50 passes Porsche A40 so the viscosity should be fine, I will probably try LIQUI MOLY 5W/50 as their 0W/40 passes Porsche approval and the blend looks similar to their 0W/40, I don't think LSPI will be an issue as I never use high throttle at low revs and have just popped in some suitable DI fuel infector cleaner, but in any case I will move from Mobil 1 to Liqui moly.
I'm sure there's some help you can get for this kind of thing...
Maybe there are group meetings I can join: "Hi, My name is Moose, and I have a low tolerance for people who give advice without knowing which end of a wrench to hold. It's been two days since I went off on someone for spouting strong opinions based on a misunderstanding of data"
It's been an interesting thread, I have learnt a fair bit and I have a degree in automotive Engineering (although left the industry 30 years ago). I am going to try a slightly higher viscosity oil a 5W 50 next time around and see that Mobil 1 5W/50 passes Porsche A40 so the viscosity should be fine, I will probably try LIQUI MOLY 5W/50 as their 0W/40 passes Porsche approval and the blend looks similar to their 0W/40, I don't think LSPI will be an issue as I never use high throttle at low revs and have just popped in some suitable DI fuel infector cleaner, but in any case I will move from Mobil 1 to Liqui moly.
I was thinking the same thing about trying an A40 5W-50 a while back, see if maybe it ran a little quieter, but I found some info that gave me pause. There are a few tables out there showing recommended viscosity vs. bearing clearances, one of which is from Driven:
I'm pretty certain the main bearing clearance on a 9A1 is < 0.0025", so unless you're racing with really hot oil it appears a 40wt would be more appropriate. Based on that I decided not to bother. But like I said, probably doesn't make much difference given Porsche tests all the A40 oils in a variety of conditions.
At the very lest, the data in this thread show that the slightly-thinner M1 0W-40 protects fine.
I was thinking the same thing about trying an A40 5W-50 a while back, see if maybe it ran a little quieter, but I found some info that gave me pause. There are a few tables out there showing recommended viscosity vs. bearing clearances, one of which is from Driven:
I'm pretty certain the main bearing clearance on a 9A1 is < 0.0025", so unless you're racing with really hot oil it appears a 40wt would be more appropriate. Based on that I decided not to bother. But like I said, probably doesn't make much difference given Porsche tests all the A40 oils in a variety of conditions.
At the very lest, the data in this thread show that the slightly-thinner M1 0W-40 protects fine.
My owners manual denotes the following three options below..:
"This test will last 203 hours. The engine, and the oil, will go through: - 4 times the simulation of 35 hours of summer driving, - 4 times the simulation of 13.5 hours of winter driving, - 40 cold starts, - 5 times the simulation of 1-hour sessions on the “Nürburgring” racetrack, - 3.5 hours of “running-in” program
Measurements on the engine and on the oil will be done at regular intervals, and the following parameter will be taken into account to grant the approval or not: - torque curve (internal friction), - oxidation of the oil, - Piston cleanliness and ring sticking, - Valve train wear protection. Cam & tappet wear must be less than 10 µm. - Engine cleanliness and sludge: after 203 hours, no deposits must be visible. - Bearing wear protection: visual rating according to Porsche in-house method."
Dunno about the distance of the driving simulations, but if we assume 30 MPH average speed then it's like 6K street miles plus several hundred miles of track time.
Amazing how little information is actually readily available. Lots of graphs and comments from the companies. I don't think they are disingenuous, but be great if you were more easily able to compare
PS Mobile 1 5W50 looks quite good !
Last edited by Carrera2RS; 04-26-2024 at 03:39 AM.
Amazing how little information is actually readily available. Lots of graphs and comments from the companies. I don't think they are disingenuous, but be great if you were more easily able to compare
PS Mobile 1 5W50 looks quite good !
Yes it does... yes it does... hmmmmmm.... oh those voices in my head. I have 197K miles on my car... the lore I grew up with denoted thicker oil as an engine ages.... oh no...... Oooo OOOo !!!! I can add ceramic Cera Tec and have an elixir that I am sure will grow hair where it has been long gone!!! No need for blue pills!!! Yeeehaaa..... what a find.
04-25-2024, 01:15 AM
