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Glad you got it installed. I feel a huge difference when the car has any G-Force applied. The car is much more stable in corners with the DSC. Being more compliant over rough roads is just the cherry on top. The main purpose for the DSC upgrade is to give better control when the car is pushed in corners, braking and accelerating. Let us know how it feels on twisty roads.
Originally Posted by jamesinger
It took a little longer to get the DSC installed but the difference between the 2 axis damptronic and 3 axis DSC is pretty insane. It is SUPER noticeable right away over rough roads and broken concrete at slow speeds. I haven't gotten to rip it yet but I expect to NOT feel a huge difference there as much. Where I really really feel it is in parking lots and at slower speeds, which in LA is A LOT. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!
I have standard PASM and the DSC... just fabulous. I tweaked mine using their software and a laptop.. even better. Yes, the cherry is a softer ride driving slowly, but the performance is better overall in all aspects... why Porsche dropped the ball on this is beyond me. I suspect they just ran out of time to refine their programming... or whatever... it is just not all that great stock.
If anyone with PASM is thinking of changing their shocks and or springs, should really try the DSC box first. It is cheap when compared to hardware, easy to install, easy to uninstall, and easy to sell of if you don't like it.
Can you send me the link to the thicker spring pad for the front? I am interested. I want my suspension more level and right now it is under 5mm of rake but enough that the mud flaps in front scrape more with the B12 kit than the OEM GT3 suspension.
I drove 500 miles the other day with DSC installed and I am now in the camp that advocates DSC as the first mod to suspension if not right after lowering springs. The difference is massive and well documented throughout this forum but for me, what is interesting beyond what has been extensively reported is how flat the car stays. Accelerating, braking, and other simple driving where the car feels like it has some body roll are completely flattened in both normal driving in normal mode and in sporty driving in sport mode. At the same time, in normal mode, the DSC smooths the ride to the point where the car feels like my old A4 Avant at times WITHOUT any of the negative associated body movement. I can see why people might prefer sport mode to be the default, which is already programmed for you when you get the module by just pressing the button and leaving it. I have felt this level of smoothness and flatness before in a GTR and it was a bit uncanny when the driver took a corner at a speed I thought would send us into the curb for sure.
Where it becomes really uncanny is in sport mode when you overcook a corner, which I seem to excel (("accel")) at when I am alone driving canyons roads. I do not mean "overcook" in the race track terminology but just where you are at the limit of adhesion and you go in a little too hot (within social acceptability regarding oncoming traffic (i.e. just to be clear STAY IN THE LINES ON PUBLIC ROADS YOU NERDS)). You can save yourself with a little trail braking, or even just modulating the throttle but usually, if you are like me, you do (kinda always) the wrong thing and PSM awkwardly butts in to save you kinda like the hand of god roughly putting you back into place. Now, when the same situation pops up, the car does not get upset laterally as it previously did with everything from the OEM suspension to my current setup. Instead, it stays flat and inspires one to use the throttle to bring the car back into place with a bit of a slip. Essentially, it makes me feel a bit like Chris Harris slipping the rear of every 911 out "on purpose" but it wasn't on purpose, yet I didn't have any need to clean my seats after. If the PSM was doing its thing in there somewhere, the kind of ham fisted "righting" back into place is gone. I also turned PSM off on my mom's private road and driveway and let the rear slip a bit more on gravel, which yielded similar results at slower speeds.
Going from 2-axis first gen to PASM to 3-axis DSC really feels like a night and day scenario from the start but I was wary of the placebo effect around town. However, after a 500 mile drive up the 99 and through the foothills of Tahoe to where the Rubicon is with rough roads and mixed concrete/asphalt/gravel/dirt/questionable rock formations...I really see that this is like taking a 991 gen or newer suspension controller and putting it into an older model. It is truly, at minimum, an update but it also really shows its worth when you rip it in sport...or maybe, it actually shows MORE worth in crap traffic...??? either way, it is brilliant.
If I have anything exciting to say after the 500 mile drive home, I will update.
*I told Tom [@Tom@TPC Racing] I would post about this but I paid full price for this DSC box and would again.
The drive home was a little more gnarly on the 99 with traffic and etc. but the DSC really made it much more liveable. I also took Prospector's road on my way down the grade from up in Garden Valley. If you are in the area, I really suggest taking that road. I still have only seen a couple people on it in 26 years, and by a couple I really mean in 26 years, less than half a dozen total. It is a residential road and it is ROUGH but a great place to test your suspension out. It even has a corkscrew-esque turn.
In any case, when I am on the freeway, I keep PASM in normal mode. It is PERFECT for rough busted up and just long slog commuting. When I am in the canyons and mountain roads here in SoCal or up at my mom's in NorCal, I just hit the PASM button for Sport Mode. One feature I think we can all agree on, is when I leave PASM in sport, it STAYS in sport. I like that a lot too. The car just feels properly dampened now in both modes. I feel like I just stepped up in tech about a decade or two.
coming going
Last edited by jamesinger; 04-18-2024 at 11:00 PM.
Reason: added a link to prospector's rd.
Sounds like you are getting some good seat time with the DSC installed. I am now trying to zero out the ride heights using the DSC software but my computer is not communicating with the DSC module yet. Has anyone successfully zero out the ride heights on their DSC?
I did some errands earlier and I was thinking how amazing a properly dampened car feels when the car is not oversprung even just driving around to the grocery store and etc. I do feel that a lot of track suspension defaults to oversprung (like the B16 and the OEM 997.1 GT3 coilovers). I am interested in what people like @Petza914 and etc. feel and @Tom@TPC Racing think with the DSC running more track oriented stuff. I put a lot of work into getting a passive suspension on other cars that really just let the dampers do their job but in this setup (B12 + DSC) I really feel dampers over springs and its so nice.
I installed my B16s before I added my DSC and immediately felt the spring difference where I could feel the suspension working instead of just being stiff. That was before I custom coded mine for softer settings at low Gs.
So, not only do the B16s better control the car, but do it more comfortably and with higher performance capability. I don't have a single rubber bushing left in my suspension and it's totally fine. If I hit one of those hard edges like where they're repaving a road and not doing the bridge and did a poor job with the temporary transition, yes, that's harsh and feels like something broke when you hit it, even though it's fine.
I got tired of the OEM GT3 suspension noises, mainly the rattle coming from the front driver side damper valves dying (but the damper still working perfectly). I also got tired of the noises the OEM GT3 hard bearing top mounts had been making. When I set up my suspension, I thought I would be tracking once a quarter at least. I also thought I would never really drive over 50 miles at a time on any given day. However, circumstances changed and I doubt I will be tracking. I am also driving 500 mile stretches at minimum once a quarter. As a result, after 3 years of this pandemic and post pandemic circumstances, I feel like the 997.1 OEM GT3 suspension isn't optimized for my situation and I searched out a solution.
(stock—approximately 4 finger gap in back and 3 finger gap in front)
My car came OEM with 15k on the odometer. It is a 997.1 C2S with the "lower" PASM set up. To me it looked like a rally car. The first option I went with was Eibach springs:
(rake—2 finger gap in front, 3 full finger gap in back)
The stock shocks and Eibach springs was a decent option but with the OEM shocks, the setup didn't feel better than OEM and I was not a fan of the rake on the car mimicking the PASM springs.
At the time, I wanted something more hardcore because I was planning to track my car a few times a year and my commutes to work were very short:
(OEM 997.1 GT3 suspension—totally level and perfect IMO—less than a 1 finger gap all around. Also, performs better than stock by far and as good as the GT3s I have driven at the limit of public road acceptability)
The casual observer without OCD will not see much difference here but this suspension is more level and the stance is perfect to me. It also just completely transforms the car. This OEM GT3 set up included Eibach swaybars and endlinks + the hard bearing top hats and etc.
This suspension is perfect for short drives and any canyon/tracking for pleasure. The only drawbacks is it is harsher than both previous setups and it makes more noise, mainly from the hard bearings/bushings. Sitting in traffic and on daily commutes, this is annoying to me because I have a job that regularly kicks my *** so bad that I drive home in silence...or, in this case, with suspension rattles and clicks further eroding my thin veil of remaining mental health...
What ended up pushing me to completely change over my suspension a third time is because the suspension got noisier over time. This is mainly because I started having to do 1k round trips every other month or so to visit my elderly mom 500 miles away, which was never part of my plan when I put the GT3 suspension in. Also, I broke my wrist in 2019 and throughout the pandemic to now, I do not see myself tracking anytime soon. As a result, I am using my car quite differently than I was previously. The noises and harshness that was acceptable have become unacceptable. Last, the front driver side damper started having some valve chatter where the damper is working perfectly but at slow speeds, you can hear rattle coming from the damper, the top hat, and the end links.
After a lot of research, I decided to go with a NON-ADJUSTABLE set up. This was a VERY hard decision for me. I have been running coilovers on all my cars since 2005. Before that, I made the same exact decision to go from a more race oriented adjustable suspension to a non-adjustable classic (tokiko blues and eibach pro kit) set up when I was living in the bay area mid to late 90s and the roads were just insane bad. Since I am driving 500 mile stretches up the 5 or the 99 and back 500 miles a few times a year, I also almost need a safari suspension for how bad the freeways and roads are from Pasadena to Tahoe.
I wanted to go with the Bilstein Damptronic B16 coilovers but after riding in a car with them, I realize it would be a good but lateral decision. The B16s feel identical to the OEM GT3 suspension to me as set up by my mechanic for a friend in the same exact model car as mine. However, I need something more pared back, so I went with the B12 Pro Kit, which is Bilstein B8 shocks (slightly shorter performance shocks) + Eibach ProKit springs (I think the same ones that people buy and put on their OEM suspension but I am not 100% sure). The result is that the car sits better than the stock shocks with possibly the same springs because the shocks are shorter. The ride is silent, which is important for commuting and long haul drives. Also, the ride is more compliant. The drawbacks are less performance at the limit of what is acceptable on a public road (i.e. canyon etiquette) and IF I were tracking, I assume slower track times. The stance is less perfect and I cannot change it but otherwise, I am super happy with this decision. To the casual observer, I do not think the stance is much different but with the B12 set up, there is a 1 finger gap in front and a 2 finger gap in back.
The reason I wrote this write up is because it pretty much goes against everything I have previously said about suspension in this forum. However, circumstances change and instead of getting a second car, I decided to make my Porsche fun to drive in my current situation. If that situation changes in the future, I might go back to something more hardcore but for now, this is the perfect set up for my situation.
this picture is trash but it shows the sun illuminating wheel gap.
After this, things I will (eventually) post for sale:
—OEM C2S Springs —OEM C2S Dampers with Eibach Pro Kit Springs
—OEM GT3 coilovers that will need rebuilding in time but currently work without errors but make noise —OEM C2S Lobster FORK wheels
—Eibach Front and Rear Adjustable Drop Links
(all pick up/drop off in the general LA area)
Really sweet setup, James!
Wondering if you think the OEM GT3 wheels will fit on a C4S? Need spacers? Never seen it before but would plan on it!
They would need spacers OR you can try to find the GT2 wheels!!
It is hard to capture but they are more aggressive for the WB fit. EDIT: someone with a C4S or other widebody might comment but I think you might be able to run the GT3 wheels with 325s on the rear and 15mm spacers. The only difference in the GT3 and GT2 wheels seems to be the offset.
I do know you can run 325s on the rear and people have gotten away with wider fronts as well. I run 235. 245 is definitely possible but I have no experience. I just run stock GT3 sizes.
Last edited by jamesinger; 04-23-2024 at 06:55 PM.
I’m finally getting my act together and doing the suspension on my car, and this thread has inspired me. I’m going with the B12 kit, I have H&Rs but I’m going to go with the Eibachs. I won’t track the car and it is a backup daily driver of sorts that I put my kids in often, and my wife drives it sometimes. In other words, I don’t need it slammed and I want it to feel comfortable. I have an E30 M3 on Ground Control coilovers (stiff) and 991.2 GT3 if I want to feel more racy.
I’ll install get the DSC setup after so I can also experience that difference.
Originally Posted by jamesinger
I replaced everything but the arms...so all the top mounts, bearing thingies that move when you steer, the rubber bits and etc. I did not use anything from my OEM setup or the GT3 setup in that regard.
The DSC replaces just the PASM boc in a 997.2. In a 997.1 you will be replacing the PASM box and updating to a 3 axis accelerometer. The shocks respond accordingly if they are PASM shocks or active shocks like Tractive or BIlstein Damptronic.
I can get itemized if you want but it wasn't much more to replace every part of the suspension from the top mounts down excluding the LCAs and dog bones and any other arms.
Can you send me the link to the thicker spring pad for the front? I am interested. I want my suspension more level and right now it is under 5mm of rake but enough that the mud flaps in front scrape more with the B12 kit than the OEM GT3 suspension.
I got this with the intention of installing with the H&Rs given that there is pronounced rake with those springs as well. Appears there is a 3mm option too, which one do you think you might install?
also, I hate to trouble you, but I would love a list of all the parts you replaced when you did this install. I’m going to tackle the project myself and want to make sure I get all of the “while your in there” bits. I’m hoping to not have to take the suspension apart again for a very long time.
Thanks for all of the info you posted on this thread, it is super helpful and fully swayed my thinking.
I think the car is as good as it is going to get rn. The difference is less than a finger between the two (± 5mm).
After driving 2k miles, I can fit one finger and part of another in the rear with B8 + Eibach Pro, which is the B12. In the front, I can fit one finger. I think we are talking under 5mm. No normal human would notice and the H&R having a bit of rake too, make it so I will just leave it as a practice in controlling my OCD.
Whatever spring pads are in are the ones that are in, lol. ...but I will ask my mechanic what he put in there next time I am in. If I had a ton of time and the back of a 20 year old, I would change up the combos to try to get things perfect (i.e. front pads thicker than rear for starters), and then change things if needed but it is such splitting hairs that my 50 year old back surely isn't down for the project.
Beyond the stance, the B12 + DSC is BUTTER.
from across the street, you definitely can't see the difference, haha.
I'm going with the 3mm pad (I have the 6.5mm pads if anyone wants them). Also replacing:
Front shock mounts and mount bearing
Rear shock bushings
Sway bar end links
sway bar mount bushings
My car only has 44K miles but its 17 years old! suspension seems tight now, but figure the above parts cost a cumulative $400, why not. Anything else you think I should replace while I'm in there?
04-03-2024 | 04:02 PM
