How concerning is this?
11-20-2023, 10:38 PM
#76
Rennlist Member
I don't know if any of my input is helpful. I'm just a keyboard warrior with google and a failing memory. I wouldn't say the cryo is a solution but more likely a preventive. I suspect, if true Porsche does this to stress relieve the blocks due to the extreme forces put on them due to the Turbo charging etc. They must figure that they're making big horsepower through forced induction and still have to be warrantied, better to give it extra help. I also wonder if the Turbo's have larger clearances between the pistons and cylinders than what the regular 9A1 has. They already run lower compression. Plus the cryo would already possibly "shrink" the bottom end before any cleanup and honing so no movement would occur after.
Hopefully Charles will see this and comment. There's a good chance he says I'm all wet and none of this is true. Until then, I'm sticking with it.
Hopefully Charles will see this and comment. There's a good chance he says I'm all wet and none of this is true. Until then, I'm sticking with it.
11-20-2023, 11:41 PM
#77
The 997.2 and 991.1 Turbos can also score. The crankcase is the same but the cylinder walls are reinforced and stabilized using a special heat treatment.
A lot of the things are already explained in detail on the LN website and in white papers or you can ask Lee Jenkins at Hartech, he is excellent.
9A1 is a good engine -- I think the link I posted from LN's website even says that if I recall and I think Jake would tell you the same. It addressed many of the shortcomings of the M9x. No one is saying it sucks and your car looks awesome, I have always liked those wheels.
A lot of the things are already explained in detail on the LN website and in white papers or you can ask Lee Jenkins at Hartech, he is excellent.
9A1 is a good engine -- I think the link I posted from LN's website even says that if I recall and I think Jake would tell you the same. It addressed many of the shortcomings of the M9x. No one is saying it sucks and your car looks awesome, I have always liked those wheels.
11-21-2023, 12:24 PM
#78
Rennlist Member
I don't know if any of my input is helpful. I'm just a keyboard warrior with google and a failing memory. I wouldn't say the cryo is a solution but more likely a preventive. I suspect, if true Porsche does this to stress relieve the blocks due to the extreme forces put on them due to the Turbo charging etc. They must figure that they're making big horsepower through forced induction and still have to be warrantied, better to give it extra help. I also wonder if the Turbo's have larger clearances between the pistons and cylinders than what the regular 9A1 has. They already run lower compression. Plus the cryo would already possibly "shrink" the bottom end before any cleanup and honing so no movement would occur after.
Hopefully Charles will see this and comment. There's a good chance he says I'm all wet and none of this is true. Until then, I'm sticking with it.
Hopefully Charles will see this and comment. There's a good chance he says I'm all wet and none of this is true. Until then, I'm sticking with it.
And yes, it does work. Years ago I had a batch of extruded aluminum that was not stress relieved. Alcoa told me I could shove it up my a**, so I ended up cutting it into blanks and having each slug cyrogenically treated as we couldn't make a good part with the aluminum as supplied. After cryo'ing, it machined perfectly. This was almost 20 years ago, so the cost of cryo has gone up about 300+ percent since then.
We do increase the piston to cylinder clearance, use bank specific wrist pin offsets, and replace modify the block to take M96 piston squirters as part of our process on these blocks. If it was me, I'd cryo every single one. In my honest opinion, these castings aren't very good. I won't sleeve them any longer other than to a stock bore diameter and even then, we are only doing dry sleeves. The blocks turn to swiss cheese when you start trying to push the limit and unless you to great lengths to reinforce it and that adds lots of cost. Other shops are boring these out too far in my opinion and that is playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded gun.
11-21-2023, 01:43 PM
#79
Burning Brakes
I've offered in the past cryogenic treatment which would be perfect for stress relieving the block before we process it, but the cost is usually a deal breaker. I haven't had anyone opt for cryogenic treatment ever.
And yes, it does work. Years ago I had a batch of extruded aluminum that was not stress relieved. Alcoa told me I could shove it up my a**, so I ended up cutting it into blanks and having each slug cyrogenically treated as we couldn't make a good part with the aluminum as supplied. After cryo'ing, it machined perfectly. This was almost 20 years ago, so the cost of cryo has gone up about 300+ percent since then.
We do increase the piston to cylinder clearance, use bank specific wrist pin offsets, and replace modify the block to take M96 piston squirters as part of our process on these blocks. If it was me, I'd cryo every single one. In my honest opinion, these castings aren't very good. I won't sleeve them any longer other than to a stock bore diameter and even then, we are only doing dry sleeves. The blocks turn to swiss cheese when you start trying to push the limit and unless you to great lengths to reinforce it and that adds lots of cost. Other shops are boring these out too far in my opinion and that is playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded gun.
And yes, it does work. Years ago I had a batch of extruded aluminum that was not stress relieved. Alcoa told me I could shove it up my a**, so I ended up cutting it into blanks and having each slug cyrogenically treated as we couldn't make a good part with the aluminum as supplied. After cryo'ing, it machined perfectly. This was almost 20 years ago, so the cost of cryo has gone up about 300+ percent since then.
We do increase the piston to cylinder clearance, use bank specific wrist pin offsets, and replace modify the block to take M96 piston squirters as part of our process on these blocks. If it was me, I'd cryo every single one. In my honest opinion, these castings aren't very good. I won't sleeve them any longer other than to a stock bore diameter and even then, we are only doing dry sleeves. The blocks turn to swiss cheese when you start trying to push the limit and unless you to great lengths to reinforce it and that adds lots of cost. Other shops are boring these out too far in my opinion and that is playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded gun.
11-21-2023, 01:54 PM
#80
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I've offered in the past cryogenic treatment which would be perfect for stress relieving the block before we process it, but the cost is usually a deal breaker. I haven't had anyone opt for cryogenic treatment ever.
And yes, it does work. Years ago I had a batch of extruded aluminum that was not stress relieved. Alcoa told me I could shove it up my a**, so I ended up cutting it into blanks and having each slug cyrogenically treated as we couldn't make a good part with the aluminum as supplied. After cryo'ing, it machined perfectly. This was almost 20 years ago, so the cost of cryo has gone up about 300+ percent since then.
We do increase the piston to cylinder clearance, use bank specific wrist pin offsets, and replace modify the block to take M96 piston squirters as part of our process on these blocks. If it was me, I'd cryo every single one. In my honest opinion, these castings aren't very good. I won't sleeve them any longer other than to a stock bore diameter and even then, we are only doing dry sleeves. The blocks turn to swiss cheese when you start trying to push the limit and unless you to great lengths to reinforce it and that adds lots of cost. Other shops are boring these out too far in my opinion and that is playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded gun.
And yes, it does work. Years ago I had a batch of extruded aluminum that was not stress relieved. Alcoa told me I could shove it up my a**, so I ended up cutting it into blanks and having each slug cyrogenically treated as we couldn't make a good part with the aluminum as supplied. After cryo'ing, it machined perfectly. This was almost 20 years ago, so the cost of cryo has gone up about 300+ percent since then.
We do increase the piston to cylinder clearance, use bank specific wrist pin offsets, and replace modify the block to take M96 piston squirters as part of our process on these blocks. If it was me, I'd cryo every single one. In my honest opinion, these castings aren't very good. I won't sleeve them any longer other than to a stock bore diameter and even then, we are only doing dry sleeves. The blocks turn to swiss cheese when you start trying to push the limit and unless you to great lengths to reinforce it and that adds lots of cost. Other shops are boring these out too far in my opinion and that is playing Russian roulette with a fully loaded gun.
11-21-2023, 03:20 PM
#81
Charles ... Thank you for your insights.
11-21-2023, 03:40 PM
#82
Rennlist Member
11-21-2023, 11:18 PM
#83
Rennlist Member
What is the cost to cryo-treat a block? Looks to be around $400 or so on the internet. For that price or a bit more, it looks to be a no brainer. I'm not sure I would do a Nickies Light process without it.
Also, I remembered where I saw a lot of this stuff.
Starts getting good around page 39 or so.
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...ailure-40.html
Also, I remembered where I saw a lot of this stuff.
Starts getting good around page 39 or so.
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...ailure-40.html
11-22-2023, 02:30 AM
#84
That is one looooong thread!!! Thanks for posting the link. It brought back memories.
11-22-2023, 07:59 AM
#85
It has to be more than $400. When I had Gbox rebuild my 996TT gearbox, they offer cryogenic treatment (and Isotropic REM finishing) and I don't recall the exact cost but I believe it was more than that.
https://www.gboxweb.com/cryogenics.pdf
"Keys to the process
Success of cryogenic processing is critically dependent on the equipment in which the processing is done. The quality and function of the machines available varies from very poor to excellent. So does the ability of cryoprocessor manufacturers to support their machines with technical and processing advice. (More details on the equipment will appear in an upcoming HTP article.)"
9A1 is a "good" engine but it is not in the same class as a Mezger.
https://www.gboxweb.com/cryogenics.pdf
"Keys to the process
Success of cryogenic processing is critically dependent on the equipment in which the processing is done. The quality and function of the machines available varies from very poor to excellent. So does the ability of cryoprocessor manufacturers to support their machines with technical and processing advice. (More details on the equipment will appear in an upcoming HTP article.)"
9A1 is a "good" engine but it is not in the same class as a Mezger.
Last edited by silver_tt; 11-22-2023 at 08:12 AM.
11-22-2023, 09:10 AM
#86
Rennlist Member
It has to be more than $400. When I had Gbox rebuild my 996TT gearbox, they offer cryogenic treatment (and Isotropic REM finishing) and I don't recall the exact cost but I believe it was more than that.
https://www.gboxweb.com/cryogenics.pdf
"Keys to the process
Success of cryogenic processing is critically dependent on the equipment in which the processing is done. The quality and function of the machines available varies from very poor to excellent. So does the ability of cryoprocessor manufacturers to support their machines with technical and processing advice. (More details on the equipment will appear in an upcoming HTP article.)"
9A1 is a "good" engine but it is not in the same class as a Mezger.
https://www.gboxweb.com/cryogenics.pdf
"Keys to the process
Success of cryogenic processing is critically dependent on the equipment in which the processing is done. The quality and function of the machines available varies from very poor to excellent. So does the ability of cryoprocessor manufacturers to support their machines with technical and processing advice. (More details on the equipment will appear in an upcoming HTP article.)"
9A1 is a "good" engine but it is not in the same class as a Mezger.
11-22-2023, 10:20 AM
#87
TBH $1,000 is less than I was expecting and I am a little surprised I think you said above you never had a single person want this. God damn people are cheap.
I don't know what the 9A1 block weighs (at least it's Al-Si) but even shipping my gearbox to GBox with insurance was not cheap. I would say it is at least $500+ in today's dollars to ship it or even more.
If I was working on my car or my indy had it on a lift and needed something I always provide the parts because I don't like WorldPac parts and i don't take chances with fake parts. Anyway, if anything was needed or missing I would just call Sunset Porsche at the end of the day (they are PST time zone) and they would overnight me whatever I want and it would be here the next day in the morning, no time lost. Now it costs 2-3x to ship the same stuff so I am more careful and try to plan ahead my jobs accordingly with much more preparation. Shipping costs have really gone up as has everything.
I don't know what the 9A1 block weighs (at least it's Al-Si) but even shipping my gearbox to GBox with insurance was not cheap. I would say it is at least $500+ in today's dollars to ship it or even more.
If I was working on my car or my indy had it on a lift and needed something I always provide the parts because I don't like WorldPac parts and i don't take chances with fake parts. Anyway, if anything was needed or missing I would just call Sunset Porsche at the end of the day (they are PST time zone) and they would overnight me whatever I want and it would be here the next day in the morning, no time lost. Now it costs 2-3x to ship the same stuff so I am more careful and try to plan ahead my jobs accordingly with much more preparation. Shipping costs have really gone up as has everything.
11-22-2023, 10:30 AM
#88
Rennlist Member
TBH $1,000 is less than I was expecting and I am a little surprised I think you said above you never had a single person want this. God damn people are cheap.
I don't know what the 9A1 block weighs (at least it's Al-Si) but even shipping my gearbox to GBox with insurance was not cheap. I would say it is at least $500+ in today's dollars to ship it or even more.
If I was working on my car or my indy had it on a lift and needed something I always provide the parts because I don't like WorldPac parts and i don't take chances with fake parts. Anyway, if anything was needed or missing I would just call Sunset Porsche at the end of the day (they are PST time zone) and they would overnight me whatever I want and it would be here the next day in the morning, no time lost. Now it costs 2-3x to ship the same stuff so I am more careful and try to plan ahead my jobs accordingly with much more preparation. Shipping costs have really gone up as has everything.
I don't know what the 9A1 block weighs (at least it's Al-Si) but even shipping my gearbox to GBox with insurance was not cheap. I would say it is at least $500+ in today's dollars to ship it or even more.
If I was working on my car or my indy had it on a lift and needed something I always provide the parts because I don't like WorldPac parts and i don't take chances with fake parts. Anyway, if anything was needed or missing I would just call Sunset Porsche at the end of the day (they are PST time zone) and they would overnight me whatever I want and it would be here the next day in the morning, no time lost. Now it costs 2-3x to ship the same stuff so I am more careful and try to plan ahead my jobs accordingly with much more preparation. Shipping costs have really gone up as has everything.
11-22-2023, 11:12 AM
#89
Rennlist Member
Doesn't sound unreasonable to me. We're talking about a high tolerance, high performance engine. The $400 or so were just quotes listed online at cryogenic treaters so that's not factoring in shipping, handling, prep, etc.
These are $30k+ engines and the cost to do is 5% or so. Why wouldn't you do it, seems foolish especially if there has shown to be movement on the castings. At worst its little more insurance.
These are $30k+ engines and the cost to do is 5% or so. Why wouldn't you do it, seems foolish especially if there has shown to be movement on the castings. At worst its little more insurance.