jamesbrah66

Hi Rennlist,

I'm in the market to get my first P car and have basically narrowed my search down to the 997.1 generation. Recently went to view a 2007 C2S 6MT with some desirable options (power kit, full leather, sports chrono) but coincidentally the owner recently had a bore scope done secondary to some engine misfire. Turns out it was misfiring due to faulty ignition coils but the bore scope did identify "minor scoring" in cylinders 5 and 6. I called the shop (reputable indy in my area) and the tech was very upfront and told me it was in fact minor scratching that he wouldn't even classify as scoring, and actually mild for its kms (65,000km) based on his experience over the years. My research so far makes this an acceptable finding to proceed with considering the purchase but since I'm new around the block I have no idea how this finding impacts the car's value. I plan to take every precaution to minimize further progression if I took ownership of the vehicle, and I know that the engine most likely isn't going to blow up tomorrow and set me back $30k CAD. So is there any point in negotiating pricing based on this finding, and if so what do you experts think is reasonable?

On a somewhat unrelated note, the car had its clutch replaced at around 35k kms, and upon observing the owner's driving/shifting abilities it became abundantly clear why. I think I can safely assume a clutch/flywheel replacement is coming up sooner than later if I take ownership so I do plan on factoring that into pricing. But are there any other consequences you can think of from someone basically not adjusting the accelerator at all when shifting gears? I do think the owner cares about maintaining his car (based on his maintenance records) but I just respectfully don't think he ever invested the time to learn how to drive manual.

Thanks in advance for your help and opinion.

funnelofdoom

All engines will eventually score and scratch to some degree. For 40k miles, that's really not bad at all, but I'm no expert. I do know with care and shortened maintenance intervals and use of recommended engine oils, you will get a LOT more miles on your car.

jamesbrah66

That's how I feel about it too, which is why I'm not turned off about the car too much because of the scratching. I also didn't hear any abnormal engine noise and nothing in terms of uneven exhaust soot. Thanks for your input!

Bruce In Philly

2009 C2S 192k miles

IMO, scuffing is not normal and is not good. I would never buy a car with marked up cylinders unless I was ok with failure and a rebuild. No way.

Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)

Graufuchs

Scuffing/Light scratching is a consideration BUT does not lead to immediate failure. There is most likely lots of life in that engine. proper warm-ups and proper high moly oil will lead to a longer life.

There are two camps of thought here, some who think that scuffing, light scratches are wear/tear and others who think that a rebuild is right around the corner.

Unfortunately Bore Score, light scuffing/scratches can occur on all M97/M96, 9A1 and more recently a handful of GT4 RS engines with "Nikasil" liners (Separating Linings). It can and does happen.

In regards to your other question, Lift and Shift to prolong clutch life.

jamesbrah66

I appreciate the sentiment. I think with our cold weather in Canada it's a little bit more likely to happen and as long as the scoring is in its early stages I can do my best to maintain the car and delay the rebuilt. It won't be my daily either so it might not happen under my ownership but I think it's a risk I'm willing to accept, just not sure if/how to factor this into price negotiations.

jamesbrah66

I don't have enough experience to join a camp yet but I agree with your first paragraph. I can accept the engine will need a rebuild with 100% certainty SOMEWHERE down the line. But cause the timeline is uncertain and it could be due to no fault of the current owner (weather, poor engine design), I don't know if/how I should factor the bore scratching into pricing.

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Unfortunately lift and shift is something the current owner does not seem to do despite owning and driving this manual transmission x 17 years. He had the clutch replaced 35k kms in and has driven it another 30k kms since...so it's probably on me to change the clutch again within a few years no matter how I drive the car 😑

Petza914

Get the photos and show us here.

That car with that spec and that mileage would be a low $50k car.

With the scuffing, you'll likely need to rebuild that engine in the next $20k-$50k miles to the tune of about $30k. My feeling is the seller should split this with you. If you can get it low $30s I'd proceed. If not, I probably wouldn't.

If you do buy it, immediately change the oil and start using Driven FR50. The higher film strength of this particular 5w50 viscosity oil will minimize any additional wear better than anything else.

carguy999

Driven FR50? I just ordered a bunch of DT40 to do an oil change in my 997.1 C2.

Petza914

DT40 is perfect for a normal and healthy 997.1 engine. For a modified engine that has higher stresses (like my supercharged one) or one that has scuffing or scoring, the higher film strength of the FR50 is better. Because I don't want to have to stock 4 types of Driven oil for my fleet, I'm actually going to use the FR50 in my wife's C2S also, which has always run DT40. Might be an interesting UOA comparison after the first or 2nd change, but she doesn't drive her 997 too often so going to be a while.

I use:

• DT50 15w50 for the 914, 944 (165k miles), 928s (both about 160k miles), and wakeboat (1,000 hours)
• FR50 5w50 for the 997s (62k on the RUF one and 112k on wife's) and GMC pickup (235k miles)
• DI40 0w40 (now called a 5w40) on the Cayenne Turbo S (50k miles) and daughters Audi Q5 (135k miles)

DesmoSD

Uploading a picture of the bore scoped cylinder would help. Do you have another shop just to get a second opinion?

FrenchieDadRS

This is absolutely terrible advice. I guess you and OP can sign an agreement and you can pay for the engine rebuild.

jamesbrah66

I will call the shop back shortly and request those photos, and post them up if/when I get them.

I had heard that Motul x-cess 5w40 is a good option for these engines too but maybe the higher viscosity would be even better given the pre-existing scratching. The current owner changes with MB1 but I was planning to use Motul or Driven DT40 (and now maybe FR50) - just whatever the community suggests as the best possible oil.

silver_tt

The GT4 RS uses plasma spray technology, SUMEbore, not Nikasil.

Graufuchs

Well, they split.....trying to get photos from friend. My point being every Porsche generation engine has an Achilles heel (Sometimes more than 1). Some catastrophic, others not so catastrophic.