Engine oil viscosity
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 111
Likes: 1
2009 C2S 175K
I don't see a reason to not like Ceratec for settling. The amount of suction and flow of oil through these engines is amazing... huge flow. Anything like that will get sucked up and mixed almost instantly. IMO.
I can't find anything definitive on our oil pumps, but assume 1 quart per second of flow.... roughly. That is what you call circulation.
Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)
I don't see a reason to not like Ceratec for settling. The amount of suction and flow of oil through these engines is amazing... huge flow. Anything like that will get sucked up and mixed almost instantly. IMO.
I can't find anything definitive on our oil pumps, but assume 1 quart per second of flow.... roughly. That is what you call circulation.
Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)
also before use ceratec you must shake can very well, because all boron nitride (white powder) stay at bottom..
Last edited by ai2pz; Oct 20, 2021 at 01:26 AM.
Advanced
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 96
Likes: 50
From: Westfield NJ
Solubility isn't an important attribute for the additives to do what they were intended to. With the engine running, the additive will be distributed throughout, providing boundary layer lubrication.. This is why for moly a little goes a long way and more is just a waste of money. You don't need an A40 approved oil unless you have a warranty that requires it, or it makes you sleep better at night. Driven oil based on oil analysis number looks great. The UOAs are intended to track wear metals, and don't necessarily tell the full story behind the oil's additive packages, as there's quite a variety for the chemists to choose from. The m96/m97 engine tends to suck aerated oil on long sweeping right turns under acceleration so folks have done what they can to combat this. Deep sumps with additional baffling and windage trays to keep oil near the pickup, better cooling with the LTT and 3rd rad to help keep the oil cool and maintain viscosity, There is a lot to learn on these forums by reading the numerous threads on all these topics that have been discussed. Do keep reading, but try to keep the inflammatory threads down. Here are two great threads on the oil pressure topic that should keep you busy:https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ispreloading=1 and https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ds-v2-2-a.html
Race Car
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 3,665
Likes: 2,357
The safest strategy is starting with a "good" oil that is already compositionally where you need to be rather than from somewhere else and trying to add Cera Tec or other additives to get there. There are many high quality oils; I personally am a fan of Driven oils based on testing it in a number of different engines and at $10/quart the price is right. A more viscous oil will provide better protection but you also want an oil that doesn't shear out of grade before your OCI (oil can shear either temporarily or permanently).
For any engine I own I always look at the approved oils list just to see what the approved viscosities are (not brands). Then I choose the highest viscosity oil you can run choosing an additive package based on if the engine is turbocharged direct injected. The Driven oils get you were you need to be in either direction (and I'm sure there are others as well but I don't have experience testing them to know which ones).
For any engine I own I always look at the approved oils list just to see what the approved viscosities are (not brands). Then I choose the highest viscosity oil you can run choosing an additive package based on if the engine is turbocharged direct injected. The Driven oils get you were you need to be in either direction (and I'm sure there are others as well but I don't have experience testing them to know which ones).
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 954
Likes: 429
Advance Auto Parts sells 10 packs of Driven DI40, for example, for $139.99 and you are able to use discount codes, which are very easy to find online (if you load the website in incognito and click around it will start offering you discount codes). It also comes with a Wix XP filter which I have no use for so I just give it to my indy because he's a great guy.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,649
Likes: 96
From: NJ
Solubility isn't an important attribute for the additives to do what they were intended to. With the engine running, the additive will be distributed throughout, providing boundary layer lubrication.. This is why for moly a little goes a long way and more is just a waste of money. You don't need an A40 approved oil unless you have a warranty that requires it, or it makes you sleep better at night. Driven oil based on oil analysis number looks great. The UOAs are intended to track wear metals, and don't necessarily tell the full story behind the oil's additive packages, as there's quite a variety for the chemists to choose from. The m96/m97 engine tends to suck aerated oil on long sweeping right turns under acceleration so folks have done what they can to combat this. Deep sumps with additional baffling and windage trays to keep oil near the pickup, better cooling with the LTT and 3rd rad to help keep the oil cool and maintain viscosity, There is a lot to learn on these forums by reading the numerous threads on all these topics that have been discussed. Do keep reading, but try to keep the inflammatory threads down. Here are two great threads on the oil pressure topic that should keep you busy:https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ispreloading=1 and https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ds-v2-2-a.html
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 954
Likes: 429
2009 C2S 175K
I don't see a reason to not like Ceratec for settling. The amount of suction and flow of oil through these engines is amazing... huge flow. Anything like that will get sucked up and mixed almost instantly. IMO.
I can't find anything definitive on our oil pumps, but assume 1 quart per second of flow.... roughly. That is what you call circulation.
Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)
I don't see a reason to not like Ceratec for settling. The amount of suction and flow of oil through these engines is amazing... huge flow. Anything like that will get sucked up and mixed almost instantly. IMO.
I can't find anything definitive on our oil pumps, but assume 1 quart per second of flow.... roughly. That is what you call circulation.
Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2021
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Likes: 1
I think when I contact LM with email ,they said me that ceratec ceramic with high temperature and pressure make thin layer that will stay attached at surfaces for 50 000km,So even in next oil change you dont put ceratec this thin layer will stay on surfeces and reduce metal to metal contact.long term effect. so in that sense settling is not problem..
Last edited by ai2pz; Oct 20, 2021 at 12:38 PM.
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From: Momence, IL
I think when I contact LM with email ,they said me that ceratec ceramic with high temperature and pressure make thin layer that will stay attached at surfaces for 50 000km,So even in next oil change you dont put ceratec this thin layer will stay on surfeces and reduce metal to metal contact.long term effect. so in that sense settling is not problem..
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Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,649
Likes: 96
From: NJ
Unfortunately there aren't any magic molecules that will bond to the surfaces and last once the oil containing that additive is drained out. In normal operation, the detergents in the oil will strip the anti-wear film from those surfaces which are then re-applied by the additives in the oil. One reason race oils work so well is that they usually have little or no detergent in them to get in the way of forming these tribofilms.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 111
Likes: 1
Unfortunately there aren't any magic molecules that will bond to the surfaces and last once the oil containing that additive is drained out. In normal operation, the detergents in the oil will strip the anti-wear film from those surfaces which are then re-applied by the additives in the oil. One reason race oils work so well is that they usually have little or no detergent in them to get in the way of forming these tribofilms.
at additional information
https://products.liqui-moly.com/cera...imo_b2b_com_en
Last edited by ai2pz; Oct 20, 2021 at 12:58 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 954
Likes: 429
Been giving this more thought. To clarify, crankcase vacuum and oil pressure are obviously not the same thing -- so in some sense my comment above is not entirely relevant. Actually if I'm thinking about it correctly, higher crankcase vacuum (negative pressure) should correlate with lower oil pressure (positive pressure) all else equal.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 804
Likes: 115
From: Atlanta
Solubility isn't an important attribute for the additives to do what they were intended to. With the engine running, the additive will be distributed throughout, providing boundary layer lubrication.. This is why for moly a little goes a long way and more is just a waste of money. You don't need an A40 approved oil unless you have a warranty that requires it, or it makes you sleep better at night. Driven oil based on oil analysis number looks great. The UOAs are intended to track wear metals, and don't necessarily tell the full story behind the oil's additive packages, as there's quite a variety for the chemists to choose from. The m96/m97 engine tends to suck aerated oil on long sweeping right turns under acceleration so folks have done what they can to combat this. Deep sumps with additional baffling and windage trays to keep oil near the pickup, better cooling with the LTT and 3rd rad to help keep the oil cool and maintain viscosity, There is a lot to learn on these forums by reading the numerous threads on all these topics that have been discussed. Do keep reading, but try to keep the inflammatory threads down. Here are two great threads on the oil pressure topic that should keep you busy:https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ispreloading=1 and https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ds-v2-2-a.html
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 804
Likes: 115
From: Atlanta
The safest strategy is starting with a "good" oil that is already compositionally where you need to be rather than from somewhere else and trying to add Cera Tec or other additives to get there. There are many high quality oils; I personally am a fan of Driven oils based on testing it in a number of different engines and at $10/quart the price is right. A more viscous oil will provide better protection but you also want an oil that doesn't shear out of grade before your OCI (oil can shear either temporarily or permanently).
For any engine I own I always look at the approved oils list just to see what the approved viscosities are (not brands). Then I choose the highest viscosity oil you can run choosing an additive package based on if the engine is turbocharged direct injected. The Driven oils get you were you need to be in either direction (and I'm sure there are others as well but I don't have experience testing them to know which ones).
For any engine I own I always look at the approved oils list just to see what the approved viscosities are (not brands). Then I choose the highest viscosity oil you can run choosing an additive package based on if the engine is turbocharged direct injected. The Driven oils get you were you need to be in either direction (and I'm sure there are others as well but I don't have experience testing them to know which ones).
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 954
Likes: 429
Quick comment: in my 3.6L NA motor, the oil passages and tolerances are really tight, so, it really likes the 0w40, over the 10w40, and it really hates the 15w50. The latter being too think -- raised the oil temps by about 15 degrees on the track. Immediately dumped it and went 10w40 and temps dropped sharply. 5 degrees cooler still with the DI40 (and for sure less soot). Just an FYI on what i observed this season so far, after 20 event days.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 111
Likes: 1
Quick comment: in my 3.6L NA motor, the oil passages and tolerances are really tight, so, it really likes the 0w40, over the 10w40, and it really hates the 15w50. The latter being too think -- raised the oil temps by about 15 degrees on the track. Immediately dumped it and went 10w40 and temps dropped sharply. 5 degrees cooler still with the DI40 (and for sure less soot). Just an FYI on what i observed this season so far, after 20 event days.
Do you agree?