GTS Cars For Sale On The Web
08-19-2021, 10:15 PM
#646
Nordschleife Master
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Destin, Nashville, In a 458 Challenge
Posts: 5,128
Received 904 Likes
on
532 Posts
I am just speaking in terms of cabriolets. Coupes may hold out longer provided macro situation does get weird over there which it has potential do anytime now. Cabriolets will always dip in the winter typically never command premiums like Coupes for manuals and etc.
08-19-2021, 10:25 PM
#647
also agree. we veered into a macro discussion, but the cab point is totally valid.
The reason i'm convinced the macro is temporary (albeit temporary could be a year or more longer) is that the older car market (longhoods/356) is stagnant. 993 and up is on fire, with 997 and up just doing nonsensical things. the money is coming from somewhere - and the fact that new car sales are significantly depressed is a clue. Your point holds on the seasonality of the cabs, even within that macro trend. so unless one is in a position to not worry about the other side of this, or truly plans to keep the car for a looong time...
The reason i'm convinced the macro is temporary (albeit temporary could be a year or more longer) is that the older car market (longhoods/356) is stagnant. 993 and up is on fire, with 997 and up just doing nonsensical things. the money is coming from somewhere - and the fact that new car sales are significantly depressed is a clue. Your point holds on the seasonality of the cabs, even within that macro trend. so unless one is in a position to not worry about the other side of this, or truly plans to keep the car for a looong time...
08-19-2021, 10:39 PM
#648
Three Wheelin'
Personally I always prefer a coupe.
08-20-2021, 03:28 AM
#649
Nordschleife Master
Who knows? Things may be a bit inflated now but I find it hard to see a drastic correction downwards based on supply and demand of the 997 combined with the dislike of the 991 and 992 by many.
The following users liked this post:
Liste-Renn (08-20-2021)
08-20-2021, 05:16 AM
#650
Rennlist Member
Count me as one of the 997 owners who are not enamored by Porsche's 911 development.
While I am cognizant of the environmental and market pressures faced by the brand, the evolution of the 911 is towards bigger, forced induction, PDK, touch screens, ever intrusive nannies and gentrification across the product line- with the exception of the GT cars.
Anyone who attempts to predict where free market valuations are headed is just as apt to be wrong as right.
Actively managed funds rarely beat the market indexes, and forecasting limited supply/high demand consumer good prices is akin to betting one is smarter than the system.
Current GTS prices are just a snapshot- but I am with sandwedge: They are even more limited in numbers than the GT3s built contemporaneously, and there appears to be a niche group of 997 enthusiasts who prefer a real-road focused 911 that can be tracked to a track oriented version that can also be legally driven on public roads.
I thoroughly enjoy owning an asset that is appreciating- but, just like one's home, to capitalize on that increased valuation, one has to sell it. Living in a nice home and driving a great car are way more fun that looking at a bigger number on a spreadsheet- at least to me.
Any desirable 10-year-old car selling for less than its original MSRP can be considered somewhat of a bargain- provided it is well kept and doesn't require expensive repairs.
I also agree with a previous post predicting a big economic correction- as this bull market continues to set both historical valuation and longevity records.
Enjoy it while it lasts, and cheers to the 997 GTS' well deserved popularity.
While I am cognizant of the environmental and market pressures faced by the brand, the evolution of the 911 is towards bigger, forced induction, PDK, touch screens, ever intrusive nannies and gentrification across the product line- with the exception of the GT cars.
Anyone who attempts to predict where free market valuations are headed is just as apt to be wrong as right.
Actively managed funds rarely beat the market indexes, and forecasting limited supply/high demand consumer good prices is akin to betting one is smarter than the system.
Current GTS prices are just a snapshot- but I am with sandwedge: They are even more limited in numbers than the GT3s built contemporaneously, and there appears to be a niche group of 997 enthusiasts who prefer a real-road focused 911 that can be tracked to a track oriented version that can also be legally driven on public roads.
I thoroughly enjoy owning an asset that is appreciating- but, just like one's home, to capitalize on that increased valuation, one has to sell it. Living in a nice home and driving a great car are way more fun that looking at a bigger number on a spreadsheet- at least to me.
Any desirable 10-year-old car selling for less than its original MSRP can be considered somewhat of a bargain- provided it is well kept and doesn't require expensive repairs.
I also agree with a previous post predicting a big economic correction- as this bull market continues to set both historical valuation and longevity records.
Enjoy it while it lasts, and cheers to the 997 GTS' well deserved popularity.
Last edited by Liste-Renn; 08-20-2021 at 05:23 AM.
The following 3 users liked this post by Liste-Renn:
08-20-2021, 03:09 PM
#651
Rennlist Member
The common denominator of most high-value and priced cars is rarity and the GTS delivers in this category. Global total production of 997 GTS cars of all flavors was 6,747. Of those, 1,500 were sold in the US, which in and of itself is not "rare" territory, but if you break it down by specific spec and flavor (coupe, cab, RWD, 4S, manual, PDK, etc), the numbers can be relatively small depending on what you are seeking. For example, I was seeking a RWD coupe with manual and they were only 276 GTS's sold in the US with this configuration (https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...-thread-4.html), which is more rare than 997.2 GT3s. I didn't realize this at the time I bought mine, but the GTS is one of only three ways you can get a 997 RWD widebody coupe, the others being a GT2 and GT3 RS. All of this is to say some GTS's are rare cars and as a result, regardless of macroeconomic circumstances (I do expect some type of correction in the near future), are highly desirable and will hold their value over the long-term, similar to GT3s.
[edit] I've had the good fortune of owning both a 997.2 GT3 and GTS. It seems that conventional wisdom states the GTS slots in between a Carrera S and GT3. In a way it does, but IMO, the GTS is more Carrera S than GT3. The GT3 engine and suspension are on a whole different level than the S or GTS and makes comparisons moot. The GTS feels and performs more like a tarted up S and really doesn't compare to a GT3. If Porsche would have given the GTS the GT3 engine but kept everything else the same, we would be having a different conversation. I wish Porsche would have offered that car and believe there is a spot for something like this in Porsche's 911 lineup: a softer-riding, street-oriented GT3 but slightly more hardcore than the GTS that was ultimately offered. I believe this was what Porsche was striving for with the GTS, but it falls short of the mark as-is. 'Nuff said.
[edit] I've had the good fortune of owning both a 997.2 GT3 and GTS. It seems that conventional wisdom states the GTS slots in between a Carrera S and GT3. In a way it does, but IMO, the GTS is more Carrera S than GT3. The GT3 engine and suspension are on a whole different level than the S or GTS and makes comparisons moot. The GTS feels and performs more like a tarted up S and really doesn't compare to a GT3. If Porsche would have given the GTS the GT3 engine but kept everything else the same, we would be having a different conversation. I wish Porsche would have offered that car and believe there is a spot for something like this in Porsche's 911 lineup: a softer-riding, street-oriented GT3 but slightly more hardcore than the GTS that was ultimately offered. I believe this was what Porsche was striving for with the GTS, but it falls short of the mark as-is. 'Nuff said.
...Current GTS prices are just a snapshot- but I am with sandwedge: They are even more limited in numbers than the GT3s built contemporaneously, and there appears to be a niche group of 997 enthusiasts who prefer a real-road focused 911 that can be tracked to a track oriented version that can also be legally driven on public roads.
Last edited by Busta Rib; 08-20-2021 at 03:32 PM.
The following users liked this post:
Snakebit (08-20-2021)
08-20-2021, 06:16 PM
#652
Rennlist Member
I agree with you that a GTS is closer to a Carrera S than a GT3- as one could option an S with everything but the wide-body, alcantara and centerlines.
Hence, some reviewers labeled the GTS a "parts bin special"- though at a bargain price compared to paying á la carte.
As you, and many others have posted, the 997.2 wide body/RWD combination is unique to the GTS/GT3RS/GT2...a pretty exclusive club there.
I am a big fan of the 9A1 engine with X51 powerkit- and do not necessarily pine for the higher revving GT3 Mezger engine.
While the peak HP is greater (435 @ 7600 RPM vs. 408 @ 7300), the torque values are much closer (max 317 ft/lb @ 6750 RPM vs 309 available between 4200 and 5600 rpm). This linear power delivery is, for me, far more suited to public roads, and available at a lower, and broader band of, RPM.
That said, the X51 power kit also gains 23 HP over a Carrera S (408 @ 7500 vs 385 @ 6500) with the same 9A1 engine, purely via a more efficient intake system. This free breathing effect is noticeable from 5600 RPM right up to the 7500 red line (+200 than the S). The S engine gains no HP between 6500 and its' 7300 red line.
Not sure those differences would be felt unless on a track in a head to head race, but the X51 engine's nature is certainly different than the S. While a GTS does not sing like a GT3 approaching redline, it definitely feels more free-revving than a S without the X51. I have owned and driven both versions very hard- but neither on a track.
So far, with almost 12 years of model repair history, the 9A1 DI engine is at least as reliable as the Mezger. No coolant pipe issues, either.
As far as the suspension- yes the S and GTS are nowhere near as surgically precise as a GT3. But that handling comes with less compliance. For me, a 997 GTS with a DSC module controlling the PASM is a near perfect setup for real road driving- especially in canyons and mountains with big elevation changes and linked 2nd-gear turns.
There was a bit of a kerfuffle on two RL threads a few years ago about the GTS possessing a "bespoke" suspension compared to the S. Pete Stout, a respected Porsche journalist and veteran new model tester was also convinced that the 997 GTS PASM suspension was superior to the SPASM version after driving both of them back-to-back over a San Gabriel Mountain and high desert course laid out by PCNA for the motoring press back in 2010. Turns out the PET catalog did not document any specific part differences- except for the obvious shorter/stiffer springs on the SPASM version.
My experience with a PASM version, having not driven a GTS with SPASM, is that the 1/2 inch higher ride height is a small trade-off for the extra suspension and front lip clearance. Again, my driving is on public roads- but most of my miles are in mountains and canyons. Even running 9 X 19 and 12 X 19 with 245/35 and 325/30 wheels and tires, I have zero clearance issues on even the tightest off-camber ascending/descending curves.
The 997 GTS sits in a very specific niche. It is as road going and user friendly as the S, but not as high-strung/no-compromise as the GT3. If I only drove canyons on weekends and could avoid crappy real world roads getting to/from the Santa Monica/San Gabriel/Santa Ynez and Sierra Nevada mountains, a GT3 would be my car of choice. If I tracked my 911 on any regular basis, a GT3 would be THE CAR. So different strokes for.... and YMMV.
But obviously more buyers are searching for an analog/Wide-body/RWD/NA-engine/Coupe/6MT 997.2 than the supply can provide. Hence, a big increase in valuation- documented by BaT and PCar Market auction results. Those sales are a transparent view of current market value. This was not always the case.
Enjoy the increased valuations of all 997 models, unless you are a prospective buyer!
P.S. As to your comment that Porsche should have offered a GTS with the GT3 engine- they kind of eventually did this with the 991.2 GT3 Touring. Not sure the suspension is different, but it certainly is set up for public roads/road trips vice a track, and retains the same engine as the GT3 (but available only with a 6MT, like the R).
Hence, some reviewers labeled the GTS a "parts bin special"- though at a bargain price compared to paying á la carte.
As you, and many others have posted, the 997.2 wide body/RWD combination is unique to the GTS/GT3RS/GT2...a pretty exclusive club there.
I am a big fan of the 9A1 engine with X51 powerkit- and do not necessarily pine for the higher revving GT3 Mezger engine.
While the peak HP is greater (435 @ 7600 RPM vs. 408 @ 7300), the torque values are much closer (max 317 ft/lb @ 6750 RPM vs 309 available between 4200 and 5600 rpm). This linear power delivery is, for me, far more suited to public roads, and available at a lower, and broader band of, RPM.
That said, the X51 power kit also gains 23 HP over a Carrera S (408 @ 7500 vs 385 @ 6500) with the same 9A1 engine, purely via a more efficient intake system. This free breathing effect is noticeable from 5600 RPM right up to the 7500 red line (+200 than the S). The S engine gains no HP between 6500 and its' 7300 red line.
Not sure those differences would be felt unless on a track in a head to head race, but the X51 engine's nature is certainly different than the S. While a GTS does not sing like a GT3 approaching redline, it definitely feels more free-revving than a S without the X51. I have owned and driven both versions very hard- but neither on a track.
So far, with almost 12 years of model repair history, the 9A1 DI engine is at least as reliable as the Mezger. No coolant pipe issues, either.
As far as the suspension- yes the S and GTS are nowhere near as surgically precise as a GT3. But that handling comes with less compliance. For me, a 997 GTS with a DSC module controlling the PASM is a near perfect setup for real road driving- especially in canyons and mountains with big elevation changes and linked 2nd-gear turns.
There was a bit of a kerfuffle on two RL threads a few years ago about the GTS possessing a "bespoke" suspension compared to the S. Pete Stout, a respected Porsche journalist and veteran new model tester was also convinced that the 997 GTS PASM suspension was superior to the SPASM version after driving both of them back-to-back over a San Gabriel Mountain and high desert course laid out by PCNA for the motoring press back in 2010. Turns out the PET catalog did not document any specific part differences- except for the obvious shorter/stiffer springs on the SPASM version.
My experience with a PASM version, having not driven a GTS with SPASM, is that the 1/2 inch higher ride height is a small trade-off for the extra suspension and front lip clearance. Again, my driving is on public roads- but most of my miles are in mountains and canyons. Even running 9 X 19 and 12 X 19 with 245/35 and 325/30 wheels and tires, I have zero clearance issues on even the tightest off-camber ascending/descending curves.
The 997 GTS sits in a very specific niche. It is as road going and user friendly as the S, but not as high-strung/no-compromise as the GT3. If I only drove canyons on weekends and could avoid crappy real world roads getting to/from the Santa Monica/San Gabriel/Santa Ynez and Sierra Nevada mountains, a GT3 would be my car of choice. If I tracked my 911 on any regular basis, a GT3 would be THE CAR. So different strokes for.... and YMMV.
But obviously more buyers are searching for an analog/Wide-body/RWD/NA-engine/Coupe/6MT 997.2 than the supply can provide. Hence, a big increase in valuation- documented by BaT and PCar Market auction results. Those sales are a transparent view of current market value. This was not always the case.
Enjoy the increased valuations of all 997 models, unless you are a prospective buyer!
P.S. As to your comment that Porsche should have offered a GTS with the GT3 engine- they kind of eventually did this with the 991.2 GT3 Touring. Not sure the suspension is different, but it certainly is set up for public roads/road trips vice a track, and retains the same engine as the GT3 (but available only with a 6MT, like the R).
Last edited by Liste-Renn; 08-20-2021 at 06:39 PM.
The following users liked this post:
MissileFlyer (08-24-2021)
08-20-2021, 07:59 PM
#653
Rennlist Member
Good points, Liste-Renn. Now I'm curious to know if there really is a difference in GTS PASM vs SPASM, mechanically and driving experience. As good as the 9A1 with X51 is and relatively comparable to the .2 GT3 engine in power and torque, it doesn't compare in my mind in the way the GT3 engine spools up and sounds. You can't replicate the howl of a GT3 engine and I do feel a difference in how the power is delivered across the rev range. The GT3 engine is slightly snappier and edgier, and hits a little harder. Perhaps there is some difference to the throttle mapping as well. Finally, the 991.2 GT3 and Touring are mechanically the same with the wing and associated bits being the only difference. To me, a GTS with the GT3 engine would be my perfect 911. But yes, if you have a GTS, you are fortunate. Best of luck to prospective buyers.
08-20-2021, 08:25 PM
#654
Advanced
Is the LSD only available on the GTS with the SPASM option? LSD in theory makes a difference in handling (understeer on entry), though I've never driven a GTS other than mine with SPASM.
08-20-2021, 08:34 PM
#655
The common denominator of most high-value and priced cars is rarity and the GTS delivers in this category. Global total production of 997 GTS cars of all flavors was 6,747. Of those, 1,500 were sold in the US, which in and of itself is not "rare" territory, but if you break it down by specific spec and flavor (coupe, cab, RWD, 4S, manual, PDK, etc), the numbers can be relatively small depending on what you are seeking. For example, I was seeking a RWD coupe with manual and they were only 276 GTS's sold in the US with this configuration (https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...-thread-4.html), which is more rare than 997.2 GT3s. I didn't realize this at the time I bought mine, but the GTS is one of only three ways you can get a 997 RWD widebody coupe, the others being a GT2 and GT3 RS. All of this is to say some GTS's are rare cars and as a result, regardless of macroeconomic circumstances (I do expect some type of correction in the near future), are highly desirable and will hold their value over the long-term, similar to GT3s.
[edit] I've had the good fortune of owning both a 997.2 GT3 and GTS. It seems that conventional wisdom states the GTS slots in between a Carrera S and GT3. In a way it does, but IMO, the GTS is more Carrera S than GT3. The GT3 engine and suspension are on a whole different level than the S or GTS and makes comparisons moot. The GTS feels and performs more like a tarted up S and really doesn't compare to a GT3. If Porsche would have given the GTS the GT3 engine but kept everything else the same, we would be having a different conversation. I wish Porsche would have offered that car and believe there is a spot for something like this in Porsche's 911 lineup: a softer-riding, street-oriented GT3 but slightly more hardcore than the GTS that was ultimately offered. I believe this was what Porsche was striving for with the GTS, but it falls short of the mark as-is. 'Nuff said.
[edit] I've had the good fortune of owning both a 997.2 GT3 and GTS. It seems that conventional wisdom states the GTS slots in between a Carrera S and GT3. In a way it does, but IMO, the GTS is more Carrera S than GT3. The GT3 engine and suspension are on a whole different level than the S or GTS and makes comparisons moot. The GTS feels and performs more like a tarted up S and really doesn't compare to a GT3. If Porsche would have given the GTS the GT3 engine but kept everything else the same, we would be having a different conversation. I wish Porsche would have offered that car and believe there is a spot for something like this in Porsche's 911 lineup: a softer-riding, street-oriented GT3 but slightly more hardcore than the GTS that was ultimately offered. I believe this was what Porsche was striving for with the GTS, but it falls short of the mark as-is. 'Nuff said.
Thanks for sharing this info
08-20-2021, 08:43 PM
#656
Advanced
08-20-2021, 08:50 PM
#657
Rennlist Member
LSD is a separate option and available without SPASM. My GTS has LSD without SPASM. Agreed, LSD helps and is noticeable.
220 Limited Slip Rear Differential Lock
220 Limited Slip Rear Differential Lock
08-20-2021, 08:50 PM
#658
Rennlist Member
Mine has the SPORT CHRONO software and button on the console, installed by a dealer, so no wart on the dash.
EDIT: Sorry for the dupe post, I sent it before yours appeared.
Last edited by Liste-Renn; 08-20-2021 at 08:55 PM.
08-20-2021, 09:01 PM
#659
Advanced
Oh so that's 2 of you with LSD and no SPASM. I was assuming those with SPASM will automatically go/get LSD, which means there is only 9 cars with LSD and no SPASM. Guess I was wrong.
08-20-2021, 10:25 PM
#660
Rennlist Member
I think the numbers of LSD w/o SPASM is much higher than that. I looked a hundreds of build sheets putting that thread together. I'm sure the number is much higher than that. Mine has it as well.
Also, the percentage of manual transmission cars is much higher than estimated. It runs between 30-45%, depending on the model and body style if I remember correctly.
Also, the percentage of manual transmission cars is much higher than estimated. It runs between 30-45%, depending on the model and body style if I remember correctly.