2-Rotor

I have seen some cars that were "dealer maintained" and i was not impressed. Factory trained technicans my *** they want the car in and out as fast as possible to make their cash. Nowadays Porsche is focusing more on there suv and panamera lineup more than the sports cars. Go you tube Nick Murray and message him on his thoughts on dealer maintence with his previous 911's.

Doug H

I would say overall and over time a manual is much more expensive than a pdk as new clutches in the manual are somewhat pricey and inevitable whereas pdk failures in 997.2 and 991s have been very sporadic. I have had a slew of pdks in the last 10 years and put perhaps 200k + miles on pdks and abused the heck of them on track during that time frame without any issues. I, however, have had to replace several clutches in manual 911s though so manual 911 ownership has been more expensive than pdk ownership to me.

No one has taken the time to figure out repairing them or rebuilding them because the market demand is NOT there (i.e., not enough failures) and nothing like what we saw with the need to rebuild M96/M97s.

I personally would be worried about MANY other items on a 130k mile other than the pdk.

sandwedge

Sorry but I don't have a good answer to your question. Maybe Porsche dealerships can pull some data in terms of PDK operating history on a specific car but I guess the question is what the value of that data would be unless wildly abnormal. As has been established, PDK failures are very rare. Other than my own failure I can't recall reading about another one here except for a recent/current one on this forum. Not sure if that turned out to be a replacement or not. Have to look that thread up.

Back to diagnostics, I think the problematic part about trying to diagnose the health of a PDK unit is that almost all failures seem to be electronics related. Tough or maybe impossible to diagnose the health of electronic components. They typically work with no hits of trouble ahead and then fail without much or no warning at all.

In sum as I see it, the PDK has been in 997's for 11 years now and the failure rate based on all data available including posts here and elsewhere the failure rate is very, very low. And by the way, some PDK "failures" are actually serviceable. My current one went into limp mode the day after I had the 60K mile service done. Flatbed back to the dealer where they fixed whatever the problem was the same day the car was brought in.

sandwedge

There. For example, you'd think Jake Raby at Flat Six would have gone from just rebuilding engines to also fixing broken PDK's if there was enough demand. Probably a somewhat complex operation to transition into but again, if the demand was there someone would have gone there given the cost of PDK replacement.

Flat6 Innovations

Nope, I'm only an engine guy. Cogs aren't for me. I've only rebuilt one transmission in my life!

sandwedge

Suspected that. Was just musing about how it would be likely for some of the best working on Porsches to have expanded into fixing PDK's by now if the demand was there, justifying investing in new tools, training, education and so forth. Doesn't seem to be the case 11 years after the PDK introduction.

I also read somewhere that it would be difficult to obtain individual parts for the PDK since Porsche isn't officially selling them for the simple reason that they have established monopoly on repairing PDK's. Don't know if there's truth to this or not but it wouldn't exactly shock me if it was true.

Upscale Audio

That's what the shop I work with told me. He can't get parts or support. There is a Right to Repair movement going on now to prevent this kind of abuse., John Deere's policies, which are changing now due to consumer and governmental pressure, is a good example

https://uspirg.org/blogs/blog/usp/ri...nts-start-2020

Floyd540

I don't think it is the "deep state" trying to abuse or destroy us. It is simply a manufacturing - business practice. Although the PDK was co-developed by Porsche and ZF, the product is a ZF product sourced by Porsche and installed in their cars. ZF has all the drawings and specifications internally to them and is their intellectual property. It is a complicated, new and tricky technology and an expensive piece to develop and produce . There is no need at the present time for Porsche to assign part numbers for the zillion internal PDK parts as they were drawn and controlled by ZF. Also due to the complexity and "newness" of this component , it makes little business sense for Porsche to get involved in learning about the details and characteristics of problems that may happen internally with this product, let along equip themselves with investments to service it. That is why many manufactures push off warranty and repair/replace issues directly to the supplier, in this case ZF. It is a ZF product, period. A problem or unexpained issue will result in replacement and not repair, no matter how simple. Just like the case in the Audi dual clutch transmissions (sound familiar?) when a small oil seepage around a wiring gromment resulted in a replacement transmission! The deal was pull it out , send it back to ZF /Getrag for replacement as they are now responsible for the warranty and replacement. They have the parts and the know how and more importantly will learn of problems as long as nobody mucks with it before they see it. Porsche does not have the parts or even the drawings in their system. It is a ZF deal, technically and business wise. On the Audi transmission I just discussed, it would go back to the manufacturer for review and repair ( which could be a ridiculously quick and inexpensive action) and ready to ship back out as an exchange unit to Audi. Huge expense and commitment for ZF and easy for the car manufacturer.
Actually the same thing applies to any other assembly sold to the car manufacturer. Example being the ZF hydraulic steering rack. Porsche (and everyone ese) buys the rack from ZF and installs it. Porsche does not have part numbers for the various o-rings and seals, they replace the rack complete and if under warranty, ZF gets it back. If yurs goes out, you send it to a local rebuilder who has all the seals and parts.
It will be a while before the PDK info is available as it is not a Porsche product and we are not a customer of ZF. No friendly ZF dealer and showroom in my neck of the woods.
Good answer By Jake above #20, by the way
Just my opinion, others know more.

Ironman88

What you've stated is understandable. But I don't think it's acceptable.

When the decision is made to include a component (such as a PDK for example) in a production car - there has to be a commitment to support the end user / purchaser of the product in a practical sense that preserves value for the product owner. Having a $15k - $20k transmission considered as a "disposable" when only a single (and comparatively cheap) part fails - is not a reasonable solution for owners. It doesn't matter that Porsche didn't make it. Porsche made the decision to incorporate it as part of THEIR automobile with Porsche's name on it.

Getting irritated about it serves no productive purpose - so I'll drop it.

63mercedes

Yes I could very well go through more clutch dollars on a manual over the years than I would with just a pdk and services. What I meant to say was financially if I had to do a clutch job tomorrow because it broke, I have the ability to. A 8k+ repair is a big chunk of change to drop at once. Especially after you spent a good chunk getting into the porsche club. The very few 3 or 4 that have been documented here, I think most resulted in full replacement or the cars got sold. I know I couldn't afford to repair it on the spot, it's a lot of cash. It's track record is proven, it's reliable I'm just a manual guy.

Ironman88

My investment hedge on PDK failure was a $6k Fidelity warranty - which will cover my '09 until the end of 2025 or 85k miles (has 28k on it now - and I put about 5k or so on it per year.)

If it goes - it will cost me a $200 deductible.

Moreover, the Fidelity warranty will cover just about everything else on the car.

The best news is that the car runs brilliantly and I love it. Glad I have the PDK.

Floyd540

In time it will sort itself out (kinda). It just turns out that the PDK is the largest, most complex, new tech and expensive single "part",(assembly) in the car. Porsche will offer reconditioned units to the public for out of warranty applications, just like new engines. Price has and never will be a complicating factor in the high end car market. Mercedes offers new V8 engines for the broken headbolt fiasco for $48,000. They call it commitment to customer service and a thank you for customer loyalty..
Back to our deal. As these transmissions move into the secondary market, via junkyards, out of warranty failures, etc, people will take them apart and track down the ZF outside vendor supplied parts, i.e. bearings, seals etc. Someone will tool up a few parts that will be solutions to known problems (are you awake Jake?) , and as ZF sets up various service facilities around the world the tools and procedures will leak out. Parts will be expensive due to tooling and low volume just like any traditional Porsche transmission part. ZF will then offer parts to their partner service providers. A $100 *** bearing with a $5 snap ring groove added becomes a $1,000 Porsche part. Dual clutch transmissions are all kind of the same with various dry or wet clutch assemblies. The biggest technical part is the electronics involved in the control functions. There will be a service industry available, but for the present it is in the hands of the manufacturers. The good news is they are not breaking and I guess Porsche is taking care of their customers that have problems. I don't have one so I have no info. In the grand future maybe someone could send theirs to German Transaxle and get it rebuilt for a reasonable price. Don't know. But I do know that ,like in your equation, C = B#.

sandwedge

Nicely summed up. I agree it's unacceptable. Porsche decided to put a $15K - $20K component in their cars that they have no knowledge of how to repair when it fails so their only option to a customer with a failed PDK is full replacement no matter how minor the actual failure may be. A few exceptions to this to be fair but it still seems like Porsche could have worked out a better deal with ZF.

What would have made more sense as I see it would have been for Porsche to say to ZF that "we'll buy and use your product but the arrangement has to include training, education and information to our tech department and access to individual components when they fail rather than having to replace the entire transmission due to the failure of one single component.

Only upside to this is that prices seem to have dropped for replacement units, new or rebuilt, Accurate or not I've seen references down in the $10K to $12K range. Still not right though when the repair may cost $500 or less.