RyanH.

I've been looking for a replacement for my 964 and I excitedly put a deposit over the weekend on this 997 Speed Yellow Aerokit on the condition of it getting borescoped today:

https://www.racperformance.com/2006-...on-TX/6832106#

Borescope results came back today and found (images attached)


:

"After scoping all 6 cylinders, I found minor scoring in cylinders 1 and 2. These are not deep scores but minor surface scuffs indicative of normal wear."

What are your thoughts? Walk away?

rtl5009

Nice Car- The top picture some of the lines (middle set) look like break in polishing or streaking which is normal, its hard to tell but its not catching the light differently which leads me to believe its polishing over scoring. The bottom picture catches the light completely different and looks like you could feel it with your nail. Its all down hill from there. Just my two cents. Assuming you only got pictures from the plug side? the bottom of the cylinder is what you really want to look at, change over is where this condition starts.

Polishing lines are normal across all motors, including lokasil and nickies.

here is a scored cylinder (1 quart ever 350 miles)




here is break in polishing. See how it doesn’t catch light and the piston reflection is consistent throughout.




here are some more pictures of polishing, these are nikasil cylinders that look a little different when polishing happens but you get the idea.

https://myemail.constantcontact.com/...id=5xOk5abBme4

Scalp_em

I Can’t tell you for sure if that is or isn’t scoring as I’m not a mechanic of p-car expert but looks like it is...it’s interesting that its only 1&2 because i think 6 is the one usually to go first?...that’s a sweet ride but i would probably walk away.....but again this could be the exact spec you want and they don’t come around every day....See if the dealer will go for paying half of a fidelity warranty if you really want that car....my .02

edit: After seeing the DME report...Run...Run fast and never look back!!

PGas32

That car was briefly listed for sale in the marketplace here but the seller opted for a quick deal with RAC. Someone else had a DME report pulled and there were some recent Range 4’s and a handful of older Range 5’s.


Otherwise a great looking car

DesmoSD

Bummer because that's a really nice build. Is that timestamp correct or did they no update it?

It's early stages of scoring similar to this.

RyanH.

@PGas32 thanks for finding that.

@DesmoSD
Yeah, I'd say that looks similar and they said they did it today so I assume the date on the device is off. In the last few weeks I've been reading up on it and some have reported being 20K+ miles post finding minor scoring and it not changing much. I just can't find much to indicate if it's something that's quickly downhill from there or if I take my precautions (proper warmup, frequent oil changes, etc...) I won't see a loss of compression for many miles. Coming from the 964 world, I'm not horribly put off by having to do a rebuild down the road but I'm also trying to make sure I don't get in a situation where resale is going to be severely impacted shortly after I get a car. RAC stated that the plugs were clean and they didn't see any indication of sooty tail pipes when they got the car but in speaking with Hans (who has previously been recommended for his PPIs) I got the feeling they more rely on error codes than visual indicators, which from my understanding would only diagnose later stage bore scoring.

While I'm not looking for people to figure out for me what to do, I am curious to hear what you all would do as that would be somewhat indicative of what I'll have to deal with when I sell it.

RyanH.

I should add that the CFO was not pleased at all at how much I lost on my 964. So, whatever car I buy next I'll need keep for a few years (or sell for a normal depreciation amount) and ideally not incur 5 digit bills. Saying that out loud probably means that I'm better off looking for a 996 with IMS Solution to pop up than a 997 but I've been trying to be logical about it and of the mindset that these issues affect a small percentage of cars. That mindset is undermined though when the example I'm looking at has minor scoring. OTOH, if this is a car that I actually kept long term, then factoring in an eventual rebuild is palatable. The latter point is harder to judge since I don't know how attached I'll become to the 997, particularly coming from a 964.

PGas32

If you’re asking what I would do...I wanted to buy the car when it was originally listed here as I’m a sucker for Speed Yellow and love the AeroKit, but the seller was unresponsive. I’m still somewhat shopping for a 997 but crossed this one off my list due to the overrevs. Knowing that it now has what could be bore scoring removes all doubt from my mind that this was a good pass for me. My $0.02

RAC knows they have a rare car and will either find someone who’s uninformed, or find someone who’s so enamored by the color/AeroKit combo that they’ll overlook the issues based on emotion.

rtl5009

was this your motor? Curious on symptoms at this level.

G.I.G.

For context, I'll share the pictures from my borescope of cylinder #6 when I had my PPI done about a year and a half ago.






I had these images taken when I had my car in for a PPI at Mayo Performance in Dallas. Having read all of the horror stories about bore scoring, I was initially alarmed at the images. I posted the pictures here and the peanut gallery told me to run, not walk away from the car. However, after talking with the guys at Mayo (they're AWESOME, by the way), my Indy here in CO, and Jud at FSI, none of them were really that concerned with the "streaking", scuffing, or whatever you want to call it that appears in the pictures. I ended up buying the car, even though I had lingering concerns, but those have faded. Especially after seeing the results of my used oil analysis'.

Since this borescope took place, I've put 7k miles on the car in a year and a half and the car has been running great! No sooty exhaust pipe(s), no ticking, no increase in oil consumption, etc. I did put in a low-temp T-stat in the Spring, along with a 3rd radiator and a new water pump. I've been changing the oil regularly as well.

*Insert Disclaimer Here*

Now, what I DON'T want to do is convince you that there is nothing wrong with the car you're considering and everything will work out just fine. I'm just trying to provide you with another data point in which to make your decision.

Regarding the over-rev's, I would ask to see that DME report. If enough time has passed since the over-rev's with no signs of problems, you may be in the clear. If the report indicates the car was ragged on, that could be something else you'll need to consider.

Did RAC do the PPI or did you take it somewhere else? I have my doubts about a place selling the car giving an unbiased assessment of the mechanical condition of a car. That goes for Porsche dealers too. If you want another opinion, you could take it to Mayo and they will take great care of you.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, I purchased the car with 50k miles and it now has 57k miles.

Sporty

Does the car burn any oil? Does it make any tapping/slappin noises? How was it maintained? How much are they asking for it?

Very hard to discern if this is a major concern based on this unless we all take our 997.1s and 997.2s and scope them and have a representative sample set of whats normal and whats not and the relative maintenance records. I'd bet not many have absolutely pristine cylinders at that mileage. Anyone here have a proper borescope on their 997 at that mileage and proof of such? If so please chime in and show us. Sorry OP, this does not make your decision any easier just trying to make a point.

Deven

I don't know anything about scoring, but when I was doing my due diligence with the DME scan, the bigger issue was how to interpret the information. Here is a link to 991virgin that does a decent job explaining how to interpret the information. http://www.911virgin.com/porsche/rev-range-information/

Essentially, until 2018, Porsche did not care that much about stage 3 and 4 activity, but then changed their stance and insist that every car that has activity beyond stage 2 needs to have compression testing and oil analysis, regardless of how many operating hours have occurred since the activity for warrantee purposes. The guys at 911virgin would not even look at a car if activity occurred within the last 50 hours, but did not worry if beyond 50 hours. The scan suggested that activity occurred ~30 hours ago.

I actually had RAC do my PPI last month, and spoke to Hans, and he seemed pretty reliable. He was recommended as they seem to have a special interest in Porsches. Of course there may a conflict of interest with this car.

Personally, I was prepared to walk away from the car that I bought if there was any stage 3 or beyond activity. If the scoring is actually legitimate, then this car has 2 strikes against it.

Petza914

I don't see the DME report, but don't like those lines. If youre serious about the car, you should take it across town to the other shop mentioned, have them pull the sump plate and scope the cylinders from the bottom. I think you'll find more scuffing near the bottom.




My car uses virtually zero oil, has no CEL, has perfect UOA results, yet has the earliest signs of scuffing in #6. Personally, I think all of these cars are going to have some of this during their life, but not sure if buy one that already has it. The ideal scenario would be for them to give you $12k off the price or essentially half the cost of a future FSI rebuild, then you roll the dice and drive it as long as it lasts before having to do that. RAC will never do that though as there are plenty of uninformed buyers that will buy that car and have no idea.

A compression test won't tell you a thing. Oil will fill the score lines and make the scored cylinders actually read higher than the non scored ones.

I would also have them hook up and provide manometer readings. That was my first and only real indicator that my ring to cylinder seal wasn't as perfect as it should be. You really want a reading around 6-7 and my car is in the 4-5 range.

The other thing it doesn't have is full leather, which is a deal breaker for me as the leather dash and door tops really make the interior feel much higher end and the cabin a more luxurious place to be so you feel like your driving a 6 figure car.

If you decide to proceed, use Driven FR50 - it's a 5W/50 oil that has a little more film strength than DT40 to protect the cylinder walls and try to prolong the life of this specific motor and change the oil every 3k-4k miles instead of a longer service interval.

Doug H

Petza's advice is right on. Huge discount or walk. Why even risk a $25k to $30k repair on a car already showing early signs of the failure. It could happen quickly once or starts or over time. Jake Raby was apparently rebuilding these engines showing signs of scoring even when asymptomatic so he must thing/believe it a huge deal at least based on the one video I watched comparing an asymptomatic car to one with symptoms, both of which had scoring present.

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G.I.G.

Petza, thanks for sharing this. I remember reading that you found the early stages of scuffing in one of your cylinders. Was the picture you took from the bottom of the cylinder with the sump dropped?

I also agree that a thicker oil is probably a good idea. I switched to Millers CFS NT+ 10W-50 this Spring and will likely continue to use it pending my UOA results when I change the oil again this Fall.