barfoo

Hi Folks. I am a long time lurker and recently became a new member of rennlist.

Also posted this in the new member forum, but that is probably not the best place to discuss this topic, so I copied the post to this forum as well. Sorry for the duplication.

​​​​Been looking at the Porsche community in general and 911's in specific for years (since the early 90's), but was unable to scratch the 911 itch until now.

I am considering the following coupe's (not cabriolets) :
996 turbo
997.1 manual S or 4S
997.2 manual or pdk S or 4S
991.1 manual or pdk S or 4S

Budget is $40 - 60K. Prefer the lower end of the range, but would be willing to explore the higher end for the 'right' car.

That brings me to the question of the day.

How did you figure out which was the best /right 911 for you, given the zillion options that can be on each car and the differences between model variations?

Would love to hear how each of you ended up with the 911 (or multiple 911's) that you have and why you choose that particular car.

FYI, I hail from the city of Dallas.

​​Barfoo

HelpMeHelpU

IMO, it won't be easy to find any of those cars in the lower end of your price range, unless they have lots of miles or other stories.

The newer the car, the newer and more the technology in any of your choices.

None of your options there are "bad" options; they all have more merits than demerits.

Regarding the choice of a turbo or NA car, it's almost a different discussion. Same with MT or PDK.

Though you posted this in the 997 forum, and I might get lots of flack to suggesting this, but I would seriously try to drive a Cayman S, in either 987 or 981 versions. They are great and very underrated sports cars (...unless you really need a back seat).

Of the cars you listed, I have owned a very special 991.1 C4S PDK and a very special 997.2 TT PDK...and I sold them both...and kept the Caymans. (Primary reason I sold was lack of engagement on the street in the PDK, though it's an awesome transmission. Also, with stock exhaust, the 997 TT didn't have an interesting sound, though that can be remedied with aftermarket options.) To the extent you drive 991s or 981s, make sure they have Sports Exhaust as an option. It'll make a difference in your experience.

Do yourself a favor and try to sit in and drive as many of those cars as you can...and do the same with the Caymans and see which one speaks to you best/most.

Good luck and enjoy your search.

Vethen

I’m going to layout my thought process, which put me into my daily, a 997.1 c2s. I’m sorry to say it might not be the most helpful because it’ll boil down to, “pick the one that is right for you”. That being said, here is some more detail.

First, as has been previously mentioned, I would drive a same generation cayman and 911. You will know right away which chassis you prefer. For myself the rear weight bias of the 911 feels more alive and fun. I can do crazy stuff in a cayman but the 911 is far more threatening, which is fun.

Second, pick a transmission. I won’t go into which anyone should get it, is completely a personal decision. But note that manuals are far more available in the 9x7.1 generations.

Third, decide between S or 4S. If you decided the cayman was great then this step is void. If you’re looking at a 911, then there are a few things to consider. Where do you live? Will this car be driven in winter weather if you’re up north? Have you owned an Audi Previously? If you had many Audi’s and are use to having that level of traction in poor weather, do you think you’d feel safe in a rear wheel drive vehicle? Personally, I prefer my cars to be more basic, simple and pure. I live where it doesn’t snow and enjoy the characteristics of a rear wheel drive car.

Finally, consider the pre and post facelift models. This is a big jump in price and technology. The .1 cars (cayman and 911) all have potential for IMS and bore scoring issues. There’s plenty of threads to read on these topics. The .1 motors feel more mechanical to me, while the .2 have much better response and power and slightly better efficiency. I personally chose a .1 after driving a 997.1 c2s and 997.2 c2s back to back on a dealer lot. The .1 left a much better impression on me, but I will point out that this is the car I chose for my personal preferences and there is a car for everybody.

Feel free to share your thought process and I wish you all the best in your journey! It is very exciting to be in the market for such a special car.

——————————

Edit:

I forgot to address 997 vs 991. I also didn’t touch on 996 turbos, which I have no interest in. I prefer the personality of a NA motor and do not seek more performance than the mid 300’s for a street car, especially when the chassis is this good.

When it comes to 997 and 991, I would argue they are different cars for different purposes. The 997 is smaller, and more analog. The 991 is more digital and a gt cruiser. Which both are very capable on paper, the former is a small engaging sports car and the lather is a sporty gt car with a lot of performance. Electric steering rack in the 991. I prefer the raw(er) feel of the 997 to the 991, in addition to the smaller size and less electronics onboard. The 997 is digital compared to a classic 911, but I find it to be the sweet spot for a modern 911.

Balr14

My philosophy is "buy the most you can afford". I didn't follow my own advise, because I found a nice car at a very good price. I should have bought something newer and nicer. I didn't. So, a year later I'm looking for what I should have bought the first time.

Sporty

Don't rule out non S cars and also "buy the owner" if you can.

HelpMeHelpU

Here's a very interesting-looking car right in your sweet spot, including being not far away in Houston: https://rennlist.com/forums/market/1205489. Go check it out. I just stumbled upon it and thought I would share it.

sandwedge

Don't think that's a bad suggestion at all. Have had a couple of Cayman loaners from my dealer when my 911's were serviced. Great cars that I would consider as an alternative to any 911 version except, and I've said this before, I just don't fit in them and I'm a bit puzzled that this is not mentioned more often. At 6'3" and 197 lbs I'm not exactly a giant but I'm hopelessly cramped in the Cayman no matter how much I fiddle with the seat position. Just can't get it far enough back.

Personal preference but given the driving position I like I would have to shrink at least 3" in height to fit comfortably in a Cayman. Same for the Boxster.

barfoo

Hi Folks, appreciate everyone taking the time to respond.

A little more personal info to provide some background.

I have had other priorities in life until now such as raising a family, work, growing the savings account, etc. Family needs dictated that we have family capable cars (vans, 4 door sedans, etc) that were reasonably priced and highly reliable (Honda's, Toyota's and their ilk). The need to save for retirement limited the budget that was available back then as well.

Well, now I'm within a few months of retiring and it's time to spend some of the savings and get a sports car for the first time in my life (sad, huh? But exciting too!).

HelpMeHelpU: Thanks for the insights into your thought process. Understand that the Turbo's are very different beasts. I prefer the linear throttle response and sound of a normally aspirated engine so that is my focus during car searches, but nice 996 Turbo's sometimes catch my attention as well. As for Cayman's, I really like the performance and road manners and I've had an internal debate as to 911's vs Caymans for many, many years. I finally have decided to make my first Porsche a 911 for two rather personal reasons. I can't seem to find a comfortable seat position in the Cayman's (I can't move the seat back far enough to be comfortable), and the cockpit is a bit claustrophobic feeling. If there was some space, even modest amounts behind the seats, I would be much happier. Note: My search has just started and I haven't had an opportunity to test drive 911's yet so my preferences are subject to modification :-)

I'll take a look at the car you pointed out, thanks!

Vethen: Thanks to you as well. As for transmission, I speak standard (most of the cars I have owned have been standards) so I would love to own a MT 911. But, I'm getting older and my knees are not in mint condition anymore. Prolonged city drives in rush hour traffic are a bit harder to handle these days. But, I could still handle an MT if I run across the "right" car and it has an MT. PDK is ok too for different (and related) reasons. I live in North Dallas and like most Texas cities with clouds of suburbs, driving is a necessity for pretty much any destination. Trips in rush hour can be painful with lots of stops/starts. A PDK would be nice to have, especially as I age further (for some reason, I can't seem to slow down the process of getting older :-)). As for S vs 4S, I grew up with rear drive cars, so I handle the rear end breaking loose pretty much instinctively. But, we have prolonged periods of no rain here in North Texas and the roads become slick as ice after the first rainfall. You can break the rear end loose at any speed at any time under these conditions. I'm thinking as I get older and reflexes age too and the fact that my wife knows how to pilot cars, but not "drive" them, a C4S would be a good choice. Nothing wrong with either S or 4S. Both are ok for me for different reasons. On the 997.1's vs .2's vs 991's topic: these all have different tradeoff's as you point out. I like the simpler, more robust design of the 997.2 9A1 engine and I think the 997.2 got a lot of things right finally. But the 997.1's are more available, IMS and engine scoring issues are not dominant (but do occur), and these are great cars too. 991's would be great for the reasons that a real enthusiast might not like (per the points you made). Long drives are par for the course here in Texas. Heck, I'll drive 60 miles just to hit a great BBQ place for dinner. I regularly make 150-200 mile excursions to visit relatives in Central Texas. So the GT manners of a 991 would be appreciated, but would acknowledge the tradeoff's you mentioned.

Balr14: I hear you :-). The side of me that is conservative financially likes the older cars and would tolerate the wear and tear of a higher mileage car. The perfectionist in me and the fact that I will likely keep the 911 till I croak (if I make the right call and by the right car), pushes me towards the higher end of my budget and newer, nicer cars.

Sporty: Yup. My main "911 whisperer" that has a collection of 7 911's tells me to "buy the seller" pretty much everytime we talk about these cars :-). Makes a lot of sense. As for S vs non-S, I like the S for the additional ponies and the PASM for adjustable ride. How big of a difference does PASM make? Roads are not getting the maintenance they deserve and are increasingly rough around where I live.

sandwedge: Yup. Caymans finally dropped off my list due to interior space reasons (can't get the seat far enough back to be comfortable, and I feel claustrophobic). These are highly personal things and are not a knock on Caymans. Great cars, really. I'd love to own one of the recent GT4's. The GT4 finally gets the engine that the Cayman's deserve!

While I don't really want to change the topic from "what you bought, why you bought it, and what is the right car, I would like to ask if you have any recommendations for local independent repair shops (for PPI and after purchase maintenance) as well as reputable local car dealers that carry quality used 991's ?

Doug H

I personally would strongly consider a 996tt over a 997.1 due to engine reliability and the 996tt is a beast to drive compared to the 997.1. The 996tt has the bullet proof Mezger and is not prone to scoring or IMS failure like the M96/97 engines in the 997.1s.

Like Sporty., I would also get a 997.2 or 991.1 non-S if had to have a manual. There is very little difference between the S and non-S for street driving . . ., but again the 996tt is the way to go if truly concerned about performance

Due to scoring concerns, I personally would not consider a 997.1 S and you can get same or better performance in base 997.2 with the 9A1 engine. Not sure why one would purchase an older car (997.1 S), with less performance and an engine that is prone to catastrophic failure when a 997.2 Base can be had for a similar price.

2009 C2S Manual with 35k miles and clean Car Fax for $57k.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...9101/overview/

2009 C4S, Aero Kit, Manual, 48k miles, Accident in 2013 (long ago) for only $50k.(Iwould look hard at this car).

https://www.swapmotors.com/buy/listi...campaign=pilot

2007 997 Yellow, Aero Kit, Manual with a cool interior and only 20k miles and clean Car Fax for $48.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...5659/overview/

2013 Manual with 30k miles and clean Car Fax for $58k.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...5659/overview/

2011 Black Aero Kit, Manual, clean Car Fax and 20K miles for $60k (This car is awesome)

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...8406/overview/

2013 Manual with 48k miles for $56k and a Clean Car Fax.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...2063/overview/

2012 Manual with only 17k miles and clean Car for for $59k.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...5376/overview/

2008 C4S sold (CPO), Manual with 24k miles so don't have to worry about scoring for 2 years since sold CPO, Midnight Blue, Manual for only $55k.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...0755/overview/

Doug H

Here is a list of 9 996tt manual coupes with less than 50k miles all under $60k. Again, I would not even think twice about going this route over a 997.1 S or 4S. The car looks awesome in my opinion, has stellar performance, and the great Mezger engine. The 007.1 will feel anemic and boring around town compared to this and you will always run the risk of scoring meaning new engine with NA 997.1 M96/97 engine at any time.

https://www.cars.com/for-sale/search...20199&zc=37027

I had 3 996tts, all purchased new, and drove the wheels off them. Took 1 up to 750hp, another had a Ruf 550 conversion that I put 68k miles on. The engines were bullet proof.

This one with factory aero package and carbon fibre interior is very nice looking and has Clean Car for and a low 28k miles.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...9486/overview/
..........

TheTorch

For me, aesthetically, the 996 Interior is really dated at this point, and not in a "classic" way. The 997 much less so. YMMV

Doug H

Have you spent time in the interior or basing this off pictures?

I spent from late 2000 through early 2008 in the interior of them as my daily driver and it does not bother me. I like the 996 interior batten that the 991 interior after having a 991.1 and 991.2 Turbos.

But seriously, who buys a 911 for the interior. I purchase them for the driving experience. The difference between a 997.1 and 996tt driving experience is night and day and then add reliability concerns on to that,

I don'tt pay much attention to the interior when I get in an drive as low as the seat is comfortable and the seating position is great. I do not like the center console on the 991s, but I am getting a 992 with an even worse center console because the car is simply amazing and another level to drive.

.

TheTorch

Maybe you missed the first 2 words "For me" or the last phrase, "YMMV", in my post.

For me, the interior is part of the driving experience of the car. YMMV

Doug H

Maybe you missed my question . . . are you basing this off photos or actually being inside one and driving it around?

Interior look is definitely subjective, but the driving characteristics are so vastly different who cares about the interior. Difficult o judge driving experience if not sit in a 996tt and drive it.

I think this gorgeous 996tt with factory aero kit and carbon fibre interior has a nice looking interior. One of mine had full carbon fibre including door handles and center console and it looked pretty sweet and sporty inside.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...9486/overview/

.

Dennis C

I’ve owned a 996, a 997, and a 991. They’re all different and offer a different experience, but they’re all awesome and they all give you a proper Porsche experience. My first 911 was a 2002 Carrera 4S coupe. It was a great driving car, and it was my daily driver for many years. My current 911 is more of a weekend car, and it’s used in a very different way.

When was shopping, the 997.2 had just launched, and the 997.1 was still a bit out of my price range. The 996 Turbo was also out of my range, so I was shopping the normally aspirated cars. I had to decide between gen 1 or gen 2 cars, and then decide on the options. I wanted AWD because I knew the car would be used in snowy conditions. I also wanted a coupe. I ultimately fell in love with the looks of the C4S, and that was where I focused my efforts. Once you nail that down, then you can work on options. I wanted a 6MT car. I didn’t want a car in black, silver, or grey. I didn’t want a black interior. As you continue to decide what you must have and what you don’t want, your choices will become clearer. The hunt is part of the fun.

Looking at your list, I’d lean towards the 996 turbo for a fun car, and the 991.1 4S for more of a daily driver. A nicely maintained 997.1 would be great also. It’s all good.