I use CarGurus to find cars, then do as much digging as I can. PCARMARKET doesn't seem to have much selection of cars most people are looking for and most end up not meeting reserve, so they go to DEALTANK for months. BAT prices are ridiculous... I think the thrill of the auction overrides common sense.

 

Cars.com, Gurus or autotrader. That way can you get a PPI before purchase.

I personally would shy away from auction spots such as BAT or PCA market unless you really know what you are doing and there was a really recent PPI on the car (like the day before the auctio) posted up.

I have been a PCA club member since the 80s. I would not purchase any car I have owned or from most of the PCA members I have known throughout the years because I can promise our cars have been very driven hard to the point of abuse. That’s what us PCA guys do.

If willing to go pdk, look for a 997.2 pdk that is being sold CPO by a Porsche dealership. You will thank me latter.

 

I bought my first 911 from a PCA member who had it listed for sale on “The Mart” on the PCA website. I had a PPI done by a dealership in the seller’s market, then I flew out and finalized the deal, and drove the car home.

 

I bought both my 911’s online, sight unseen with no PPI. Dumb as hell but I got lucky with both purchases. I just made sure to buy from dealerships with 4.5 or above ratings, since it was going to be based on trust that the vehicle description was accurate.

I really suggest you go with a manual 997.2 with low (less than 50k) miles. If you decide to get a 991 later, you can always flip your 997 for it. I think the 997 is a great car and you will not be disappointed unless you are looking for warp speed sensations. They are very balanced cars and no real maintenance problems to speak of. Just trouble free and carefree driving. Modern navigation system. Great fuel economy to boot!

If I could do it all over, I’d have bought a base 997.2 Carrera C2 and put some coilovers and Numeric shifter and cables on it. I wouldn’t have bought the C4S.

 

Thanks for the advice on places to look regarding 911's for sale. I had been looking at pcarmarket and BAT pretty frequently of late and it seems that people are either overpaying (BAT) or not winning the auction (pcarmarket) due to the seller having a rather ridiculous reserve price. It was pretty frustrating to watch.

My "911 whisperer" (e.g. a local well off friend with a collection of 7 911's) told me to stay away from cars.com, car gurus, and especially autotrader. He felt most cars offered by the dealers on those sites were not the best examples of used 911's. Personally, I thought that was a bit over the top :-)

I'm going to spend some quality time looking at what is offered on cars.com and car guru's (I looked at autotrader late last week).

Due to Covid-19, I don't feel comfortable flying anywhere. I.e. because of age, I have 4 known risk factors for severe Covid-19) and I'm not getting on a flying aluminum suppository with recirculated air (even if it is filtered) to go and see a car before buying it.

So, I'm going to rely on the person performing the PPI for any mechanical or cosmetic issues. What PPI options are in the "must do" category. If I'm restricting my search to 997.2's and 991's, do I need to bore scope the cars looking for cylinder scoring? Etc. Etc.

 

Especially when you wind it out to 7000 RPM. You really need to "know" how to drive these cars to appreciate them and the engines. My base rides super smooth and tight , no rattles on 18's MPS4s and i cant drive it enuf on the highway, it is so responsive and dropping it down to 3rd /4th and nailing it, the intake wail and exhaust -nirvana. Make sure you get a proper test ride or have your friend with the 911s take you on one.

 

I'm with you about flying... even without Covid-19 it was a pain in the ***. Now it's close to a death sentence for us older folk. I prefer trains.

Looking for bore scoring on a 997.2 or 991.1 is an invasive procedure that requires some disassembly. I know I wouldn't allow it if it was my car.

 

There can be good and there can be bad on Cars.com, Gurus and Autotrader. Some of the best examples out there are on all 3 and some of the worst out there are on all 3. Just stubborn to generalize like that and refuse to look there.

If don’t want to fly around and kick tires in person, try to purchase a CPO car. Although there are exceptions, these tend to be the better cars, they will have fresh services and wear items will be in good shape. You also have a warranty and I can tell you from e perience that PPIs do not catch everything and can miss huge mechanical problems brewing.

 

You’re making really good headway in your due diligence and research when selecting a model and I applaud you for that!

A common thing you’ll hear from the Porsche community is to always buy the newest Porsche you can afford. I don’t always agree with this but I understand the meaning the statement is going for. I have a gut feeling from what I’ve read so far, which could either be dinner or just bias, but I feel like a base 991.1 would be a good match for you. They’re more spacious, fast even in base trim, lack most engine failure modes of the previous car and PDK feels better in that generation than in the 997.2. That way as you retain the car into older age, you won’t have to part ways or pass a driving opportunity due to any quirks of aging.

Additionally, depending on where you find a potential car to purchase, you can always put out a request for a “renn-fax”, having a rennlist member who lives near the car in question go and perform an in person inspection of the vehicle prior to you paying for a PPI.

 

That combined with the exterior that lacks the distinctive curves of both the 993 and the 997 makes the 996 a non starter for me no matter how good of a value a well taken care of example can be.

 

I agree with you that the 996 NA cars are really bad looking, but I actually like the looks of the widebody 996tt with the inlets and tail. The 996tt looks good with the factory aero kit.

 

There is always the mention of Bore Scoring and IMS failure in the 997.1

I WANTED a 997.1. I was never a fan of the fried egg headlights on the 996. I do respect the 996tt and facelift C4S from that gen, but I really was drawn to the 997 for it's beauty, classic headlight shape, updated interiors and wide hips. Even the C2S has wider hips compared to a base 996.

There are two things I've learned from this forum in relation to IMS and bore scoring that sounds to be the consensus:

1) 2006 MY and up had a better version of IMS and failure is less than 1% (sorry if my memory is off, this is the percent I remember).

2) Bore scoring is rare, and does not come without symptoms. (See link https://flat6innovations.com/cylinder-bore-scoring/ ). Is it a real hit in the wallet if this eventually happens to your M97 engine? Yes. But if you know what to look for and have a PPI done, it shouldn't be a deal breaker IMHO.

My 997.1 was nearly $20K less than most decent 997.2's I saw, which makes the 997.1 an insane bargain. I paid less than $35K for my C2S with 60k miles. Though I'm not a fan of the taillights on the 997.2, they are free of the "Bore Score and IMS boogie man" so there's that. However, the 997.2 has it's own issues and risks that one must accept before buying. And then there is still the higher price point.

For me personally, the 997.1 got my a$$ into a Porsche. At my age (35) with a house and kids and bills, a 997.2 wasn't going to happen anytime soon. So I took the risks with grain of salt, hopped on Autotrader, found the exact car I wanted, and pulled the trigger.

Good luck.

 

Bore scoring can be completely asymptomatic for a while. Raby posted a video here confirming this and I was told this by factory techs in 16/17. I posted same on her back then.

The percentages impacted are higher than IMS for 997.1 and perhaps 15% to 20% and growing. Be sure to have engine scoped. Regular PPI will not catch it. A clean scope now does not mean won't get it later.

Raby documented cars spending their life in the warmer Southern climates having it. I think Petza also stated he had it without symptoms now and he maintains his cars perhaps better than anyone on here.

I know this pisses guys off, but just keeping it real when someone posts something inaccurate that could lull newbies into a false sense of security. There is a reason for the price difference and by all means purchase at your comfort level, but be armed with full knowledge when so doing.

The 997.1 is an awesome car otherwise, but the M96/97 has been problematic since new (first water pumper) and were even getting lemmoned at high rates back when new in the early 2000s.

 

Thanks guys. The recent postings in this thread leaves me with a few follow-up questions.

1. I understand that the IMS bearing is no longer part of the 9A1 engine in the 997.2's. Please confirm.
2. It's not clear to me if the 9A1 has any issues with bore scoring. Is there any accumulated knowledge on this topic?
3. Are there any brewing or known issues to look for on 997.2's or early model 991.1's ?
4. The asking prices on decent, lower mileage 997.2 S and higher trims are nearly the same as early versions of 991.1 base Carrera's (with decent options)
   1. Of course, I need to get away from the computer and drive some of these myself, but is a well optioned 991.1 Carrera (with low mileage) better/worse vs 997.2's S trim and higher trims in terms of overall performance?
   2. And then there is the question of the 7 speed MT, which some renn-listers love to hate. What is it about the new 7 speed manual transmission that bugs people. Can you get used to the new shifter? Your thoughts?
5. And ... what was the last model year in the 991's before everything went Turbo?

 

Just go find a few local and start driving them, you'll never get 100% of what you need to make your decision in words here.