Antigravity

This is Scott, from Antigravity Batteries I wanted to address what I feel is some push back on pricing for Lithium from some of the members above. I will say I absolutely understand that some are wary of price points in products. Spending your hard-earned money is a personal decision and we are never here to say what is best for your pocketbook, but if you not presenting both sides of the equation in your statement against the value of our particular Lithium battery then I will present some facts that might not be known about or addressed. .

1- If you search Rennlist, or most any other forums, you will find Battery threads appear almost everyday. ... and this is because someone across the hundreds of daily posts on Rennlist is having a battery issue. So its obviously a very important part of the Car, and something that fails quite regularly, and is required in every car. So I assume we can agree on that.

2- 63 Mercedes in assuming that a LIthium battery is a "Racing Battery", but that is not accurate here..... Yes, Lithium is used in Racing, but what we, Antigravity Batteries, are promoting on this site is not a Racing Battery though it can be used as one if desired. The fact is these models we offer here are ultra-lightweight Automotive batteries for any Passenger or Performance Car, and have Amp Hour Capacities and energy density that is required for the use in street driven cars, these are direct replacements for Automotive Lead/Acid Batteries.... not race batteries. The Race Cars actually use smaller versions of our Batteries in most cases and we service those guys also, but this battery is more the OEM replacement type battery.

3- To assume the Antigravity Battery s just offering benefits of Lightweight actually just scratches the surface of what our Battery offers to the Customer.

- Our Lithium Battery offers a Lifespans of 8+ years... Lithium is rated at 3000 cycles, and the best Lead/Acid is rated 1000 Cycles... (this is not me saying this, it is every testing facility that has tested both types of Batteries). Now also consider that the Lead/Acid Battery is damaged if you over discharge it below 8v.....so if you accidentally stored your car too long, or left the lights on overnight, or for whatever reason you over-discharged the battery, then you have just damaged or ruined your Lead/Acid battery. On the other hand the Antigravity Battery has a circuit board inside, called a Battery Management System (BMS), that has all the Protections built-in that PREVENT it from being Over-Discharged, or Over-Charged. It also has Short-Circuit protections, and Thermal protections, and last it has Cell Balancing inside. So the Lithium cells inside the Antigravity Battery do not get subjected to these potential hazards as a Lead/Acid battery would be, so our battery is kept in its best operating conditions at all times which allows for the longest life possible. Lead/Acid cannot prevent itself from being over-discharged and damaged.... so one accidental over-discharge with a lead/acid battery and you have damaged your Battery and it will have a dramatically shortened life depending on how long it was in its state of over-discharge, and how over-discharged it was. This won't happen with our battery.

-Our Antigravity Battery has WIRELESS built-in Jump Starting! I said WIRELESS, BUILT-IN JUMP STARTING.... that a first of it kind the Automotive World, or anywhere for that matter. So you will NEVER be stranded by a dead battery again when using the Antigravity Battery. So you can leave your lights on accidentally, or store the Car too long and our battery puts itself to sleep while retaining a reserve supply of energy, enough to start the car again. So you simply press our Keyfob that comes with the battery, start your car and drive away. You can also press the Keyfob to get access to your Frunk since the energy to your entire car goes on again. So imagine that.... no need for AAA, or any assistance, no need for a Jump Starter or Jumper Cables. You simply press a wireless Keyfob and start the Car and drive away. In fact if its raining outside, you can be in the comfort of the car, you don't have to access, or even touch the battery, you simply press the keyfob start the car and drive away. Also imagine if you wife or teenager, or yourself was not familiar with Cars and were stranded by a dead battery because you accidentally left something on inthe car.... again no need to even see the battery or seek assistance, and you don't have to know how to use a jump starter. That's a game changer and a massive value if you ever get into that situation.

- Our Antigravity Battery averages about 35 Lbs weight savings over a typical Porsche battery in the H6 size. So for the performance minded that is staggering... you get better starting, you will never be stranded.... and you lose 35lbs in a 15 minute installation? Absolutely NOTHING compares to that value. You can put on $10,000 dollars of Carbon Fiber or Titanium and lose a couple pounds.... the battery gets you 35lbs in a quick swap for about $800 bucks. PierW compared it to a exhaust..... well a good exhaust system loses about 15-17lbs....and will cost a good couple thousand with the installation costs and tuning. So that is not really and apples to apples comparison.

Anyway my point is not to say anyone is wrong here.... spend you money as you see fit, that is your decision. I just want to present the realities since I sensed that the product was dismissed with the the arguments always basically stating " $800 dollar for a Battery!!! That way to much..." But it not just a battery that is $800 dollars, its a highly sophisticated technology in a battery that delivers benefits a lead/acid battery can't even come close to. So if you value not having to hassle with a dead battery, or not worry about getting stuck, or stranded with a dead battery this is cool technology. Yes its a front loaded cost, but it costs less in the long run, and will save your butt a few times during your ownership of it.

tapcon

In parts of the west and south US, it's the heat that kills batteries. Do CCA numbers matter much where the winters a relatively mild?

Also read where the high heat environments speeds internal corrosion and weaken the battery's ability to maintain the charge. How does the Lith battery chemistry respond to heat cycles when compared to the standard AGM type?

Thanks.

63mercedes

Yeah heat is one of the worst things for a battery. I live in Boca Raton and the $80 dollar Walmart battery in my truck has been fine for 4 years. I'm sticking with diehard for the high end stuff. I get it, it's a real nice sports car, but I have to side with ease and reliability. I could see if it was your favorite bumper, ducktail, wheels or a nice exhaust. But it's a battery all it does it start the car. Different strokes I suppose...

Antigravity

Lead is more effected than Lithium in terms of Heat and Vibration... The high-cycle vibrations of an Automobile and even the thunks of larger hits like rough roads effect lead/acid more because it has more brittle connection points being they are made of lead. Additionally the high cycle vibration is supposed to create wear on the cells due to the liquid and gel of the electrolyte vibrating against the lead plates. As far as Heat, that can evaporate the liquid inside a lead acid battery, for example a VRLA lead acid battery are much more affected than an AGM Lead/Acid by the Heat.... but overall the heat still causes stress and shortened life on Lead/Acid.

As for Lithium and vibration the connections within the battery are not brittle since it has flexible connection points between the cells, , and then a flexible cable from the cells and BMS to the main Terminal connections on the outside of the battery. So that is extremely resistant to any effect of vibration. Additionally since the lithium battery is basically a dry-cell chemistry there is no vibration of liquid against the cells as occurs with Lead/Acid since the cell are directly bathed in liquid. So vibration isn't nearly as relevant or a cause of damage in general to a Lithium Battery. As far as heat, and because lithium does not have any liquid to evaporate and because the Lithium cell pack is insulated after installation in its Case with a foam agent and heat/fire proof panel boards around the cell pack so that it is protected from a catstrophic failure from the inside, and also protected from exterior heat approaching the battery cell-pack. So its not as prone to high heat damage as a lead battery. But YES absolutely all batteries can be effected by high heat and have a shortened life, but it isn't as relevant in our Lithium Auto Battery due to it construction. And also in Porsches without the battery being in an engine bay it is less prone to high heat effect. But we do try to keep our other smaller versions of the lithium batteries away from super high heat. . For example for the Race Cars with Turbos in the Engine bay we try to isolate the battery, or move the battery into the passenger area of the car because turbo and twin turbos create massive heat in the engine bay when racing at sustained high RPMs, but that is a different animal than a street performance vehicle or passenger car..

Antigravity

I get it.

ilovemaui

I would love to have one of these high end batteries, mainly because I love technology. Watching my battery charge from my phone might be interesting, but not something I sit up at night wondering about. It may last two or even three times longer than an AGM but I can get an Interstate AGM battery at Costco for about $175 that will likely last five years. I don't know if I'll still own the car in five years. Maybe a Rennlist group buy would change a few minds.

ADias

Li batteries have many nice features (low weight, high CCA, etc.) but they can also, no matter how good the control or warning circuitry is, burn up at high temps and take the car and the house with it. Do we want to take that chance?

Ironman88

Perhaps the Antigravity rep can address this concern. Obviously the Li batteries in hybrid / electric cars are significantly different in scale relative to what is being discussed here as a replacement in a 911. It is true however - when an Li battery burns, it REALLY burns...

https://abc7news.com/los-gatos-tesla...x-suv/4938820/

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ns_with_li_ion

Wolpertinger

I bought an Antigravity battery for my 987.2 Cayman S about a year ago. It traded the Cayman in for a 991.1 in January, and swapped the battery over. Yeah, it's expensive, but it's a great battery. No regrets at all. The reserve jump start capability is awesome. You'll never get locked out of your car because the battery is flat, and always have enough power to start the car in the event there is some sort of drain that flattens the battery. And so much lighter, too. No regrets!

TheTorch

If weight savings isn't your main goal, the simple alternative is buying a lithium jump start battery on Amazon for about 70 bucks.

A bonus is that it will work on any car anywhere, without the junk show of jumper cables, getting your 2 cars lined up close enough, etc. A no brainer in my opinion. I keep one in each car.

Antigravity

We have about 4 sales a year on our stuff with up to a 15% discount on the batteries... then another during Christmas. We'll put those up when they come up. I think the next one is within a few month. We did group buys initially when coming on Renn, it was a great success but we can't do them with the sales too. We found the sale more effective because then we advertise more to several different forums and can absorb the costs more.

Also note we are about 1/3rd lower in pricing to our nearest competitors like Braille's Lithium Batteries or companies like Lithium Pro's or Volt Phreaks.... yet we offer MUCH, MUCH more in features and value than these competing companies to be honest. Braille's top battery is $2000 dollars and we utterly crush it in ever respect, yet our top battery is $950... half the price and multiple times better in every respect. . We have full protections in our BMS, Wireless built-in Jump Starting, and sizes to fit most all cars.... Braille has NO safety features, NO protections, NO BMS, NO built-in starting and only a couple sizes, yet twice the price. Those are just the realities. Same with Lithium Pros, their 24Ah battery is $1,100 dollars... our is $600.. yet offers built in jump starting and full BMS. So we are bringing this technology to market at a MUCH lower price point than our competitors by a very long way, and we can do that because we sell a lot more Lithium products in general than these companies, and do this in a larger scale. So while this technology costs a lot in comparison to lead/acid battery, in the realities of the market we are actually WAY lower in cost than other brands. So our margins aren't really high for the amount of development we do and the price points we come in at. This is about developing a market rather than making a lot of money with this product.

Antigravity

Your statement is not accurate ADias, I'm glad you brought this up, it gives me the opportunity to relay the facts and since Lithium is newer and there is a lot of misinformation, so I can explain some accurate info below.

- First off , Lithium-Iron Phosphate (Lifepo4) is the Lithium Chemistry we use in our batteries, it is NOT the same type of Lithium as used in Hoverboards, Cell Phones, RC Cars, or Laptops that have been know to have issues of thermal runaway and raw flame events. That is because it is a much less volatile, and much less energy dense form of the Lithium chemistries available. There are several Lithium Chemistries, such as Lithium Cobalt/Lithium Polymer type chemistries that are used in the RC Cars and Cell Phones that are the chemistries involved in fire scenarios that are in the media... this is not that chemistry. In fact the Lifepo4 chemistry we use is arguably the safest form of the lithium chemistries available today, and is currently used by Porsche, McLaren, Mercedes Benz, Audi, BMW in their top of the line Cars for the past several years as their Starter Batteries, and I am absolutely beyond certain that these companies would not risk burning up their cars and people homes due to a Lithium Starter battery.

-Lifepo4 does not spontaneously combust in raw flame in most any circumstance, nor does it spontaneously combust from high heat. There is a set of circumstances required to even cause a thermal event in a Lifepo4 battery. The heat required to even cause any thermal runaway event in a Lifepo4 battery would be well beyond what is happening in your Car. To give and example we have UNPROTECTED Antigravity Batteries in Race Cars, these Unprotected models of Antigravity Batteries do NOT have the Thermal Protection circuitry, nor any other protection circuitry of the RE-START models I bring up on Rennlist. They are also super compact without any interior insulation against high heat, and they are in engine bays that have twin turbo racing motors running at sustained High RPMs for LONG periods of times during racing and track events at Willow Springs, and other California Tracks which is often over 100 degrees in the Summer and 200 degrees in the engine bay..... they are exposed to temps a Performance Street Car would NEVER see yet they do not burst into flame and burn up these very expensive cars. In these high heat uses the life of the battery is absolutely shortened dramatically, and can even be damaged, but its not burning up these cars, and that is absolutely the highest heat that any of our battery will see as the use in any vehicle. Yes it will damage these batteries quickly and make for a very short life for them... but no fires.

- Additionally, in regards to the build-out of of the Antigravity RE-START Battery we promote on Rennlist..... The cell-packs are surrounded by a flame/heat proof exterior hardboard, so even if the cells within the battery got punctured by an external force, which could cause a thermal event, the cells heat are contained inside the flame proof board... but additionally there is a flame proof foam around the cell pack itself the case, and then the exterior case that would contain the heat. But again these are circumstances beyond what is ever expected of the battery. Also, on this subject is that Lifepo4 thermal events are not often accompanied by any raw flame as another more volatile chemistry might be. Lifepo4 generally melts and smokes but not raw flame.
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- Another fact is that external heat will not really ever be a factor unless it is an intentionally raw flame from a Propane torch or something else. As I said our batteries have full protections including THERMAL protections....so the RE-START battery will shut itself down if it sees any over heating from the interior or exterior because it has a temperature monitor on the BMS that shuts off energy to or from the battery if it sees too much heat. So that is why we don't recommend them for full racing in the engine bay of Race Cars, because of that extra protection the battery would go into" sleep mode" if subjected to race car motor temps directly. And even if our batteries BMS was to fail, these RE-START Batteries have much more insulation around the battery cell-pack than our Racing Batteries... so if our Racing batteries handle high heat fine, then the RE-START batteries are about 5 times more thermal insulation since they have so much insulation with the flame-proof board and foam inside the battery.

-More importantly for the User to understand about the Lifepo4 chemistry is that there is a set of circumstances that are required for any thermal event to happen with a Lithium-Iron Phosphate Cell. They must be severely over-charged, or severely over-discharged then placed on a Charger that is severely over-charging them, that then would create a potential thermal runaway event after a good bit of time. Yet as I have stated, our batteries have Protections against these circumstances even occurring in the first place so it can't happen. It is also very important to understand it to get to these level of over-charge and over-discharge that I speak of you would have to really work at it and find a way to even get the battery into a position to get an overcharge on the battery by using some charger for another application.... not a 12v Automotive Charger. So if you plan on putting our battery on a 24v 100A RV charger... the protections would still kick in... but you would be using the product as it is NOT intended which would be a USER ERROR, not a battery problem.

I understand you have read articles or seen stories about Lithium and fires... but lets make this very clear, most all these product you heard about are NOT using the Lifepo4 chemistry, and they are in other product that use those other chemistries. Additionally a Starter Battery is not often being abused in its application at all. Additionally Lifepo4 Starter Batteries have been in use by Porsche, McLaren, Mercedes Benz, BMW and others for several years now in their high- end models. In fact now more and more Porsches are coming stock with Lithium Starter Batteries... and the GT3s have had the Lithium option for several years. So do you think that these companies would put Lithium in their most expensive models if they felt they were going to burn down these Cars and the homes of people who own these expensive Cars? Also we have insurance on all our products ... my point being IF there were incidents with Cars and Houses burning up due to our Lithium Starter Batteries for Automobile we wouldn't really be able to get any coverage. It would not really be an Insurable product. Insurance companies don't screw around with products that cause fire and burn down homes.

Last, I live in Ojai California where the temperatures are quite often in the 105 range during summer.... I have 4 Automobiles, and one is a 2016 GT3 RS. All have our batteries and are subjected to these high temps. I also leave single units of the batteries in the direct sun out here for months on end and in the winter for testing. I have the batteries in my garage, and outside in my bikes, and at our office/warehouse we have THOUSANDS of them. And we have used them in the harshest enviroments such as world class racing.... So I want to make clear there is no chance on Earth, that I would knowingly risk my family, my home, or anyone's else's family, homes or personal property for any product that we thought would just combust and burn things down.