Philosophical Question: Why doesn't Porsche Seem To Get the 911 Right The First Time?
05-09-2020, 01:03 AM
#16
Porsche pretty much nails itt every time. It's you who has changing expectations based on evolving technology, fashion and design. That makes the last 2 gens look outdated and flawed and makes you start drooling about the latest and the 3rd last gen. In any given year.
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loungin (05-11-2020)
05-09-2020, 02:57 AM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Don't know how much truth there's to it but I've read stories floating around suggesting the design changes beginning with the 991 had much to do with Audi pushing hard to get involved in the design of all Porsches going forward. Looking at the "evolution" of the 991/992 compared to the 997 I see no reason not to believe it.
05-09-2020, 08:14 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
"It is just my opinion, but it seems like it takes time for Porsche to get things right"
How can anyone get a subjective opinion right. What you mean is It is just my opinion, but it seems like it takes time for Porsche to get things right to me. The answer to that is that they are not building the car just for you, Fat_Louis.
Instead they build the car for:
1. The approval of the executive staff
2. The accounting department
3. German safety, pedestrian, pollution and noise regulations
4. US safety, pedestrian, pollution and noise regulations
5. Fickle consumer demand
6. Dealers
Cars are a balance between what the engineers want and what it cost. Demand is not inflexible, so costs have to be controlled and that always means some design limitation. It can always be faster, better styled, sound better, be more luxurious but adding these things costs money that will not be recovered on sale and profit is the number one game.
Finally, hindsight is 20-20. The .2 is usually better because after spending more time they can see what works and what doesn't plus certain costs come down from scale and certain tech gets better and cheaper.
How can anyone get a subjective opinion right. What you mean is It is just my opinion, but it seems like it takes time for Porsche to get things right to me. The answer to that is that they are not building the car just for you, Fat_Louis.
Instead they build the car for:
1. The approval of the executive staff
2. The accounting department
3. German safety, pedestrian, pollution and noise regulations
4. US safety, pedestrian, pollution and noise regulations
5. Fickle consumer demand
6. Dealers
Cars are a balance between what the engineers want and what it cost. Demand is not inflexible, so costs have to be controlled and that always means some design limitation. It can always be faster, better styled, sound better, be more luxurious but adding these things costs money that will not be recovered on sale and profit is the number one game.
Finally, hindsight is 20-20. The .2 is usually better because after spending more time they can see what works and what doesn't plus certain costs come down from scale and certain tech gets better and cheaper.
05-10-2020, 12:48 PM
#19
Why didn't Ferrari just make the 355 perfect out of the box? Why did it have to have the engine removed to be serviced? Why did the 360 still require a belt service after they learned that customers didn't like dropping the engine every 3-5 years on their 355? Why did the 430 headers crack? Why did the 458 have some DCT issues. Why did they make the 488 Turbo? Why is the F8 so digital?
Why did the E39 M5 and E46 M3 have rod bearing issues? Why did the E60 M5 and E90 M3 have rod bearing and throttle actuator issues? Why does the E60 M5 have an SMG transmission which has issues, didn't they learn on the E46 M3?
I don't see any car as being perfect. Each one is going to have something you don't like about it.
The 997.1 GT3 I see as being perfect. Even then you need to drop the motor to fix the coolant lines on these cars. If that is the biggest thing I need to do on my car, then I am pretty happy.
Also if you asked every person what was important to them you would get a different answer. You can't please everyone. Also, budgets. These are still production cars and Porsche needs to make a profit.
Why did the E39 M5 and E46 M3 have rod bearing issues? Why did the E60 M5 and E90 M3 have rod bearing and throttle actuator issues? Why does the E60 M5 have an SMG transmission which has issues, didn't they learn on the E46 M3?
I don't see any car as being perfect. Each one is going to have something you don't like about it.
The 997.1 GT3 I see as being perfect. Even then you need to drop the motor to fix the coolant lines on these cars. If that is the biggest thing I need to do on my car, then I am pretty happy.
Also if you asked every person what was important to them you would get a different answer. You can't please everyone. Also, budgets. These are still production cars and Porsche needs to make a profit.
05-11-2020, 01:22 PM
#20
Three Wheelin'
Hello All
Thought about the 911 since 1999. I am not trying to start any ****. Just an honest questions based on my observations/resale values over time
It is just my opinion, but it seems like it takes time for Porsche to get things right.
1. The 997.1 was a great improvement over the 996 in terms of interior and exterior design.
2. The 997.2 took care of some problems the 997.1 had and improved exterior aesthetics somewhat.
3. I think the 991.1 didn't have the right proportions and the LED running lights/turn signals just looked awful. (I think this car is the 996 of the 2010's and will be real bargains)
4. The 991.2 looks much better than the 991.1. I would seriously think about getting one once much of the deprecation is done.
5. 992 just released sort of looks too big. Brain still trying to figure out what I think about it. Like the 991.1. a lot of the factory rim choices don't look quite right.
So again, it is just my opinion, but why can't Porsche get things right the first time? The 911 is their flagship product. You would think they would research buyer preference before they release a product only to improve it drastically with what I assume is buyer feedback for a "mid-cycle" refresh/technical update. Do they kind of go out on a limb to try different stuff only to back track when it doesn't seem to resonate with buyers? Shouldn't Porsche know that in general their 911 buyers are more interested "purity" then design fads/gimmicks?
Any thoughts?
cheers
Fat-Lou
Thought about the 911 since 1999. I am not trying to start any ****. Just an honest questions based on my observations/resale values over time
It is just my opinion, but it seems like it takes time for Porsche to get things right.
1. The 997.1 was a great improvement over the 996 in terms of interior and exterior design.
2. The 997.2 took care of some problems the 997.1 had and improved exterior aesthetics somewhat.
3. I think the 991.1 didn't have the right proportions and the LED running lights/turn signals just looked awful. (I think this car is the 996 of the 2010's and will be real bargains)
4. The 991.2 looks much better than the 991.1. I would seriously think about getting one once much of the deprecation is done.
5. 992 just released sort of looks too big. Brain still trying to figure out what I think about it. Like the 991.1. a lot of the factory rim choices don't look quite right.
So again, it is just my opinion, but why can't Porsche get things right the first time? The 911 is their flagship product. You would think they would research buyer preference before they release a product only to improve it drastically with what I assume is buyer feedback for a "mid-cycle" refresh/technical update. Do they kind of go out on a limb to try different stuff only to back track when it doesn't seem to resonate with buyers? Shouldn't Porsche know that in general their 911 buyers are more interested "purity" then design fads/gimmicks?
Any thoughts?
cheers
Fat-Lou
05-11-2020, 01:26 PM
#21
Three Wheelin'
Why didn't Ferrari just make the 355 perfect out of the box? Why did it have to have the engine removed to be serviced? Why did the 360 still require a belt service after they learned that customers didn't like dropping the engine every 3-5 years on their 355? Why did the 430 headers crack? Why did the 458 have some DCT issues. Why did they make the 488 Turbo? Why is the F8 so digital?
Why did the E39 M5 and E46 M3 have rod bearing issues? Why did the E60 M5 and E90 M3 have rod bearing and throttle actuator issues? Why does the E60 M5 have an SMG transmission which has issues, didn't they learn on the E46 M3?
I don't see any car as being perfect. Each one is going to have something you don't like about it.
The 997.1 GT3 I see as being perfect. Even then you need to drop the motor to fix the coolant lines on these cars. If that is the biggest thing I need to do on my car, then I am pretty happy.
Also if you asked every person what was important to them you would get a different answer. You can't please everyone. Also, budgets. These are still production cars and Porsche needs to make a profit.
Why did the E39 M5 and E46 M3 have rod bearing issues? Why did the E60 M5 and E90 M3 have rod bearing and throttle actuator issues? Why does the E60 M5 have an SMG transmission which has issues, didn't they learn on the E46 M3?
I don't see any car as being perfect. Each one is going to have something you don't like about it.
The 997.1 GT3 I see as being perfect. Even then you need to drop the motor to fix the coolant lines on these cars. If that is the biggest thing I need to do on my car, then I am pretty happy.
Also if you asked every person what was important to them you would get a different answer. You can't please everyone. Also, budgets. These are still production cars and Porsche needs to make a profit.
05-11-2020, 10:32 PM
#22
Intermediate
My guess is that you think Porsche consistently misses the mark because you're more familiar with these cars than most others, so you know the flaws of each generation really well. As others have already mentioned, you can find flaws in the design of nearly every car, especially of the high performance variety. I'm not a diehard BMW guy, so I don't know the flaws of each generation of M3, but I know they have their issues too, probably even more so. Same holds true for Ferraris, Corvettes, Lamborghinis, etc. Among high performance cars, the 911 has a reputation for getting it right more often than most of the competition. I'm not trying to be a fanboy - these cars certainly aren't perfect - but I think your familiarity with 911's is twisting your perspective a bit.
Regarding styling, that's 100% subjective. Until I read this thread, I had no idea so many Porsche guys didn't like the styling of the 991 and 992. Personally, I think they look great, but that's just my opinion. I will say I don't like the way each generation of 911 is getting bigger.
Regarding styling, that's 100% subjective. Until I read this thread, I had no idea so many Porsche guys didn't like the styling of the 991 and 992. Personally, I think they look great, but that's just my opinion. I will say I don't like the way each generation of 911 is getting bigger.