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Hell, people who buy Land Rovers just expect stuff to break. That's SOP with the brand.
Very true - Except my 2008 LR3 has done me good. Finally a model that produced great results!
Only issue was design flaw on front lower control arms which I had replaced couple years ago.
Other than that smooth sailing
Hell, people who buy Land Rovers just expect stuff to break. That's SOP with the brand.
LOL... Was gonna say just that and then scrolled down to see you beat me to it.... Land Rover, worst vehicle I ever had.... But to this day, the one that I preferred driving... But hated owning.
Hey don't forget Indy 997 P-car monkey-mechanics recent quote: "Bore Score and 7 years ago, our fellow 997 owners brought forth on this Forum, a new issue, conceived in fear, and dedicated to the 997 owners that preached all 997's are created equal."
Good grief, has anyone actually claimed it was bulletproof? The claim has been that it is highly reliable and has far few failure modes than the M9X engine series. I've seen nothing to refute this.
The only straight-forward info on the 997.2/9A1 engine is coming from Baz Hart. Baz stated unambiguously that he has seen only five cases total of 997.2 bore scoring and none in the last year. All five we driven hard at start in cold weather. Baz is a virtual clearinghouse on this issue in the UK and the only person putting out facts and figures (as opposed to nebulous references to 9A1 "failures"). In the mean time we continue to hear claims of this tsunami of 997.2 bore scoring coming that is always just around the corner. This despite the fact these engine have been in service for eleven years.
Some people just enjoy worrying it seems. I don't get it as it accomplishes nothing and takes a terrible toll, but there's a lot I don't get about human nature.
Well, you know, 6billion+ cumulative miles is not enough real world driving for issues to start showing up. Also, we know there are no 997.2 cars driven anywhere in cold climates, or abused, or [insert wrong oil reference here]. Also, we all know internet forums aren't massive echo chambers for anything negative. Not at all.
I think everyone should panic and put their cars up for sale now. Sure, it may be considered the most reliable modern high performance car. Sure, it may have a virtually zero failure rate. But everyone who owns (or should own) a 911 is one [finance payment / oil change / PDK failure] away from personal bankruptcy. We know that Ferraris have literally zero failure rates - no engine fires, no manifold issues, no transmission problems. Same goes for lamborghini. Obviously high performance british brands are immune.
One path we all should NOT go down is the Lexus ownership path. Because that is fraught with the risk of becoming bored to death.
Come to think of it, the number one cause of death is life (or at least birth). For all those who were never conceived in the first place, bullet dodged there for sure!
I agree with you, I didn't mention anything that contradicts that. Probably my next vehicle will also be 997.2 (if I don't find 993
Yeah sorry, didn't mean to vent at you as we're on the same page. There are amazing posts on this site from great people filled with incredibly useful information (DIYs, buyer's guides, etc.). Then there are also folks like the thread starter who posted his alleged bore scoring over 48 hours ago and disappeared. No useful information, no follow up, just fear p0rn that does nothing except give the more neurotic members ulcers. On top of that there are continually vague references to 9A1 scoring with no hard facts (like number of cases, how often, conditions when it happened, etc.).
Not a conspiracy theorist but it almost seems like there is a concerted effort to drive down the 997.2 values. I've been following this pretty closely and I've found no more than ten 997.2 verified bore scoring cases worldwide, this as SpeedyD notes is after 6 billion miles driven (not sure where that stat comes from, sounds reasonable based on car sales). If one of the experts wants to go on the record (other than Baz who already has) with their confirmed 997.2 bore scoring cases it would be welcome.
Let's take our fingers out of our ears while yelling "là-là-là" and let's accept that it is what it is and all the denial in the world won't change a thing.
With this said, although I've been taking the conspiracy thing to be complete paranoïa, I'm starting to think that the accusers might be on to something....
I say we should all agree to stop talking about bore scoring and ims and pay attention to who the next guy is, that brings it up.
I don't know, but it seems that when a few days go-by without the mention of it, a new guy drops a bomb and disappears, or there's an update or information suddenly popping up about it which stirs up panic again.... But just like kids with their parents or bully with its victims, the reaction/panic wave that follows, motivates the repeat of such behavior.
If one of the experts wants to go on the record (other than Baz who already has) with their confirmed 997.2 bore scoring cases it would be welcome.
Do a search. I have confirmed several cases, and more importantly, offered ways to help reduce the likelihood of suffering scoring with both gen 1 and gen 2 engines.
We've fixed three in the last 6 months with scoring. I shared photos as well as detailed measurements of Bronz's block, but these were not the first recorded instances of scoring we witnessed. The first case was almost a decade ago sent to us from the Middle East, however, like I have stated many times before, the Gen 2 engine is far better than its predecessor. You can find me stating that regularly on several forums and threads. I still firmly believe that. However, it shares the same Alusil cylinder technology and ferroprint piston coatings utilized in the Cayenne and Panamera, of which we have been seen failures of and been fixing for many years.
I will add that it took at least ten years from when they were new for us to see scored blocks or other cylinder failures in any serious quantity. That doesn't guarantee that these Gen 2 models will suffer the same severity or quantity of cylinder failures as the M96/M97 engines or Cayenne/Panamera engines, but it is something to be cognizant of. Pretending it isn't an a possible issue or being fixated on the possibility of having a failure doesn't benefit anyone.
These cars just need to be driven and maintained properly.
One more thing I need to add to this conversation. Whomever started this paranoia and subsequent conspiracy theory, I can understand where they are coming from.
We get calls all day long from people who don't own a Porsche or that just bought one. Most could barely afford to buy the car and most certainly can't afford to own them, afraid to drive them or worrying about having a failure. Identifying potential problems prior to buying a car with a PPI (pre-purchase inspection, not a post-purchase inspection) is a must for any of these cars. Falling in love with a car for being a certain color or having some option you want and blindly diving in is not smart.
If you are losing sleep over it, sell it and buy a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry.
If I added up all the money I've spent on my Porsches over the years and compared that to what they are worth or what I sold them for, you'd understand it's a passion, not a sound financial decision owning a Porsche (at least for me).
Do a search. I have confirmed several cases, and more importantly, offered ways to help reduce the likelihood of suffering scoring with both gen 1 and gen 2 engines.
We've fixed three in the last 6 months with scoring. I shared photos as well as detailed measurements of Bronz's block, but these were not the first recorded instances of scoring we witnessed. The first case was almost a decade ago sent to us from the Middle East, however, like I have stated many times before, the Gen 2 engine is far better than its predecessor. You can find me stating that regularly on several forums and threads. I still firmly believe that. However, it shares the same Alusil cylinder technology and ferroprint piston coatings utilized in the Cayenne and Panamera, of which we have been seen failures of and been fixing for many years.
I will add that it took at least ten years from when they were new for us to see scored blocks or other cylinder failures in any serious quantity. That doesn't guarantee that these Gen 2 models will suffer the same severity or quantity of cylinder failures as the M96/M97 engines or Cayenne/Panamera engines, but it is something to be cognizant of. Pretending it isn't an a possible issue or being fixated on the possibility of having a failure doesn't benefit anyone.
These cars just need to be driven and maintained properly.
Thanks Charles, I've read your posts with interest and learned a lot and have always appreciated your willingness to share info. Your detailed posts on Bronz's internals were very informative and confirmed it was the same failure signature (scoring on four areas of the piston/cylinder) that Baz had documented. I did include Bronz's engine and the one from the Middle East (UAE I think) in my count. If I'm not mistaken I think you also shared one from South Korea that someone sent you photos of that I included in my count. So that's still around ten confirmed cases (maybe up to fifteen with some Jake has mentioned but likely a double-count with some of yours).
A minor correction I think, while the 997.2 does use an Alusil block I don't think it uses Ferroprint. I'm fairly certain Porsche switched back to a plated process (Ferrotec) in the 9A1, this would make a huge difference in reliability as it doesn't flake off like the printed coatings. If you have info contradicting this please let us know.
Completely agree with your last two sentences which I why I think it's important to focus on confirmed cases rather than hearsay. Thanks for the always informative posts.
Last edited by PV997; 02-06-2020 at 09:16 PM.
Reason: typo
Thanks Charles, I've read your posts with interest and learned a lot and have always appreciated your willingness to share info. Your detailed posts on Bronz's internals were very informative and confirmed it was the same failure signature (scoring on four areas of the piston/cylinder) that Baz had documented. I did include Bronz's engine and the one from the Middle East (UAE I think) in my count. If I'm not mistaken I think you also shared one from South Korea that someone sent you photos of that I included in my count. So that's still around ten confirmed cases (maybe up to fifteen with some Jake has mentioned but likely a double-count with some of yours).
A minor correction I think, while the 997.2 does use an Alusil block I don't think it uses Ferroprint. I'm fairly certain Porsche switched back to a plated process (Ferrotec) in the 9A1, this would make a huge difference in reliability as it doesn't flake off like the printed coatings. If you have info contradicting this please let us know.
Completely agree with your last two sentences which I why I think it's important to focus on confirmed cases rather than hearsay. Thanks for the always informative posts.
There are many instances where Jake is contacted, but as a result of his long wait list, many of those failures never make their way to LN, opting for a factory engine as a quick fix or in most cases, much to my dismay, these cars with scored bore get sold off with the problem undisclosed.
I've asked my contact at Mahle for clarification on the Ferroprint vs Ferrotec processes, as I believed the DFI Cayenne V8s and Panamera V6 and V8 models recevied the Ferrotec iron clad coating, but still have scoring problems. Most of those calls we get are from areas where the cars are driven in colder climates in the winter, especially from Canada.
Following up on this, I dug into it last night to determine where I had read that the 9A1 (997.2) engine used Ferrotec plated pistons. It was in Baz Hart's white paper and he's also mentioned it a few times in comments here. Baz tested numerous pistons in coming to this conclusion. I also found a Mahle trademark application for the name "ferrotec" filed back in 2007. This timing is consistent with use on the 9A1.
It would be really good to settle this once and for all. Ferrotec is electroplated (like Ferrostan was according to Mahle documents) so the coating forms a bond with the piston material. Ferroprint used on the 996/997.1 engines (~2000-2008) is sprayed on and is analogous to paint. The difference is an electroplated coating will scratch but due to the bond it will not flake, unlike a sprayed on coating. Once the coating starts to flake it's all over as the aluminum to aluminum contact will lead to galling.
Porsche made many changes to the 9A1 to address bore scoring but the switch back to an electroplated piston process (if confirmed) seems to me the most significant.
According to my contact, all pistons manufactured in NC by Mahle Motorsports for Alusil bores use the Ferroprint coating, not Ferrotec. He could not verify which process was being used by Porsche with the pistons made in Germany.
If they did change to the Ferrotec electroplating around 2007 or 2008 and used this on the DFI Cayenne V8 and Panamera V8/V6 engines, it doesn't solve the problem. Just hop on the Cayenne forum and you'll see evidence of that.
Let's take our fingers out of our ears while yelling "là-là-là" and let's accept that it is what it is and all the denial in the world won't change a thing.
Agree completely. There is no statistically significant issue with 997.2s and all the trolling the world (and scaremongering) can't change that. The ignorance would be amusing were it not for the same "logic" getting applied in other parts of society (anti-vaxxers and their BS, "health" fad diets, etc). Math education, particularly in statistics, is failing society. Same with applied logic.
The number of threads on this and the number of people who claim to be "spooked" from such miniscule numbers is pretty sad. Sure, if someone is banking their life's savings on a single car's value, then maybe this statistically insignificant issues matter. They should probably not be financing these cars. But then again I guess numbers aren't their strong suits anyways, right? Buying cars they cannot afford, buying homes with massive mortgages at 5x+ household income, and maxing out CCs is the new life approach. I guess sub-1% issues matter then.
According to my contact, all pistons manufactured in NC by Mahle Motorsports for Alusil bores use the Ferroprint coating, not Ferrotec. He could not verify which process was being used by Porsche with the pistons made in Germany.
If they did change to the Ferrotec electroplating around 2007 or 2008 and used this on the DFI Cayenne V8 and Panamera V8/V6 engines, it doesn't solve the problem. Just hop on the Cayenne forum and you'll see evidence of that.
Thanks Charles, I really appreciate this info. My speculation is that they may have switched to Ferrotec for the 9A1 but stayed with Ferroprint for the others. Something clearly changed in 2009 as we don't have confirmed 9A1 scoring at anything close to the rate of M96/M97 scoring. And the small number that have been confirmed and/or documented (Baz's 5 cases, Bronz's, UAE, South Korea) all have the characteristic four-sided "seizing" at the edges of the skirts that doesn't look anything like the one-sided scoring seen on the thrust face center of the M96/97's pistons. Baz has stated the 9A1 piston coating looks different from the M96/97 coating and behaved differently in the tests they ran.
I sure wish Porsche was more open about this.
Edit: Porsche also made the change from Lokasil to Alusil in 2009 but something more must be going on. As Charles mentions the other cars (Cayenne, Panamera) also use Alusil but still have scoring problems, likely since they use sprayed on piston coatings (ferroprint). Electroplating can be nasty since it usually involves cyanide. Since the 9A1 was Porsche's high performance engine, plus it was made in Germany, it wouldn't be too surprising if the electroplated pistons (ferrotec) were reserved for it. Porsche had the IMSB debacle on it's hands back then, plus they knew about the 996/997.1 scoring from warranty repairs. They could not afford another engineering foul up on their flagship model.
02-06-2020, 04:33 PM
