Bore Scoring Flat 6 Video Part #2
02-19-2019, 06:34 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
I have a 997.1 3.8L engine and I like to drive mine at least once a week. I live in Southern California with more "stable" weather even though it's been cold (41 degrees in the morning) recently. In regards to the warm up time, I start the car but don't back it out of the garage until the idle drops; seems like a minute or so. I do keep the revs below 4K and drive moderately until the oil temp reaches 200 degrees. Don't want to sound paranoid but is this ideal to keep the engine healthy during my 20 mile commute one way?
02-19-2019, 08:05 PM
#17
Thank you for your very informative video. Looking forward to Part 3.
I have a 997.1 3.8L engine and I like to drive mine at least once a week. I live in Southern California with more "stable" weather even though it's been cold (41 degrees in the morning) recently. In regards to the warm up time, I start the car but don't back it out of the garage until the idle drops; seems like a minute or so. I do keep the revs below 4K and drive moderately until the oil temp reaches 200 degrees. Don't want to sound paranoid but is this ideal to keep the engine healthy during my 20 mile commute one way?
I have a 997.1 3.8L engine and I like to drive mine at least once a week. I live in Southern California with more "stable" weather even though it's been cold (41 degrees in the morning) recently. In regards to the warm up time, I start the car but don't back it out of the garage until the idle drops; seems like a minute or so. I do keep the revs below 4K and drive moderately until the oil temp reaches 200 degrees. Don't want to sound paranoid but is this ideal to keep the engine healthy during my 20 mile commute one way?
02-20-2019, 05:19 AM
#18
Hi Jake,
The public will be unaware that a few years ago we both recognised the advantages of an agreement over technology exchange between us (including LN) and spent some time trying to put something together that would benefit us both and in turn our customers. We found a lot of common ground but it also became clear that it can be a dangerous game when we are recognized on opposite sides of the globe as the leading experts but may disagree over some technicalities, or the products we provide to solve issues - providing the public (and competitors) with conflict that they would love to nurture and fuel and setting up arguments between us forcing us to polarize our opinions and basically fall out with each other.
As a result I have tried to minimize posts on Rennlist on the grounds that we are both doing a great job for our customers and it may be better to concentrate on our work than arguing with each other. In any case it is often not important what the real cause was when identifying issues. Different specialists often can link a problem with the need to change something but for different technical reasons and as long as the change improves things it doesn’t really matter who is right or wrong as long as the change makes a difference.
Many global issues fall into this category – where it doesn’t really matter if the cause is global warming, carbon emissions, cutting down the rain forest or just a natural long term weather swing that will correct itself as long as we do something to minimize the consequences. As the medical professional said – we often don’t really understand a cause but as long as what we do improves things and we keep seeking answers – that is often the best we can do.
There are also differences between our continents. Fuel may well be an issue over there but not over here, ambient temperatures may vary, typical driving conditions may be different (we have a lot of congested roads but higher overall speed limits), we may drive shorter distances more often (same overall mileages but more or less heat cool cycles) and we may even on average have different driving styles (often very aggressive driving over here especially with 3rd or 4th owners trying to prove a point with the performance of their car). There is also good practice when rebuilding an engine that has nothing to do with bore scoring – we would both still recommend new shells, chains, head overhauls etc. Then there are things in the original design that I think we both regard as poor engineering automotive practice but we can do nothing about anyway.
We originally didn't like a ceramic IMS bearing but did state that a solid oil pressure fed bearing would be a good solution and bought one from LN that worked fine. However we never get to fit IMS bearings in situ these days and as we rebuild 4 or 5 engines/week we manufactured new end gears for original IM Shafts to house the larger bearing (fitted to the later cars) and made them for early roller chain and later HIVO chain shafts and now usually fit these in house. however you can see that we tried to introduce relationships between us then. So there are many reasons why we may rebuild engines with a different emphasis on issues but neither of us are doing anything wrong and our customers are getting great service. A problem does arise however when one of us makes a statement to try and inform the public and with good genuine intentions but without realizing that the other has similarly commented on the same issues but with conflicting explanations (or we are asked why our explanations are different).
The outcome implies that one is claiming to be right when the consequence is to imply that the other is wrong. The public see it as “they cannot both be right” and can easily set up conflict that neither of us seek but which they enjoy and to no one’s benefit. Our attempts to inform owners could become a battle of wills that neither of us seek but that differences of opinion stated publicly can generate. I agree entirely with your view on videos and agree that you have been well ahead of the game and that we are well behind. I also agree that there are a diminishing number of people that understand anything at all about engines and that we have all gone off reading when we can lazily sit and watch a video.
We have made a couple (on our Hartech automotive UK web site showing what we do and a fast frame full rebuild from driving in here to driving out again) and I agree they are extremely time consuming and the only way to afford to do it a lot would be to set up your own studio – as you have done – great respect for all that you contribute and well done. Until now we have restricted out technical explanations to our buyers guide (on our web site) with words and photos but I do agree that is now well out of date and we probably need to go with the times and do something similar to yourself. So yes - I think we will have to copy that - so we are in tune with public preferences when we try and convey information - but will always be happy to acknowledge your lead in the Porsche World in technical explanatory Video production – no problem there.
The difficulty I forsee however is what to do about explaining the contradictory causes of a specific subject that pretty well everyone Worldwide is aware of – like bore scoring - (but is not generally competent to judge). I can see it leading to unnecessary conflict between us that will only confuse owners and not help them (and which many will enjoy). As a result I have tried hard not to be adamant or gladiatorial in my contributions but always try relate my opinions to our experiences but in regard to bore scoring it has not helped and has clearly left the public confused – which is the opposite outcome to that we both intended. Although we change lots of things when we rebuild an engine, on the rare occasion that our customer will not approve everything we recommend (and although that will almost certainly shorten the eventual lifespan of the engine because they didn’t have new valve stems, a de-coke, new chains etc), never the less as long as we change the cylinder to our Nikasil ones – they will not experience any further bore scoring.
As a result it is difficult not to comment when lots of owners seek explanations about the causes of bore scoring and they all differ. So – over here (for whatever reasons) despite the fact that we do impose minimum standards in our rebuilds (or we will refuse to rebuild it) if all we did was to change the cylinders for Nikasil (and obviously replace a scored piston) the engine would not experience bore scoring again. It might not last that long for other reasons, might have to be rebuilt again for some other failure eventually but bore scoring would not return. From this I can only conclude that bore scoring is caused by Lokasil running with plastic coated pistons – and as any coating on a piston (or none at all) will run with Nikasil - get rid of the Lokasil – job done. But replacing Lokasil with something else is what we both do – so we both solve the prime cause with the same solution but perhaps in slightly different ways (which is totally acceptable) and as a result does it really matter if we disagree on some other technical issues that might or might not contribute to it?.
Because we both solve the problem (as I understand it you also fit Nikasil alloy replacement liners) and because we think this is the primary solution – it seems a shame if the outcome is for us to be publicly arguing about it all when we both are doing the right thing in a slightly different way to solve it and in so doing are providing great service to our customers. We do not use iron liners for reasons well explained over many years but we do concede that for racing – although we rate Nikasil alloy liners as superior – we acknowledge that iron liners correctly fitted can work well enough (as clearances are only needed for racing and running noises and oil consumption are not an issue) – we just prefer to do a technically better job with Nikasil and alloy. We also may differ in the precise way we fit the Nikasil liners but ours work perfectly (and I assume yours do to) so does it really matter if there are minor differences in how we do it?
So to avoid public conflict on this subject I am going to send you a private E-mail explaining why I disagree with some other issues you claim in your video to be contributory factors. I will also provide you with our pictures and measuring evidence of our Gen 2 bore seizures and our solutions. I look forward to it if you decide to reciprocate. It takes a lot of guts, confidence, time, money and testing to work out what a highly regarded manufacturer like Porsche could have done better and it takes a lot of commercial and production investment to set up a viable solution especially with the relatively limited financial resources we have at our disposal.
Furthermore we have learned that listening to others can just be a complete waste of time and I guess we have as a result become insular in our analysis and solutions. It would only be someone with great personal confidence in their understanding that would attempt and succeed in such a task and when faced with a public that know almost nothing about the subject (but often think they know more than we do) – it is easy to become insulated from listening to anyone else's opinion – but we can always learn and must try never to stick to our position when a better explanation emerges and try to always seek the truth rather than simply prop up our stance. Our experiences may tend to make us inflexible but I am still willing to try and find common ground privately.
I don’t know if this is the right thing to do or the right way to handle the technical differences we have and I await your response with interest.
All the best over there Jake,
Baz
The public will be unaware that a few years ago we both recognised the advantages of an agreement over technology exchange between us (including LN) and spent some time trying to put something together that would benefit us both and in turn our customers. We found a lot of common ground but it also became clear that it can be a dangerous game when we are recognized on opposite sides of the globe as the leading experts but may disagree over some technicalities, or the products we provide to solve issues - providing the public (and competitors) with conflict that they would love to nurture and fuel and setting up arguments between us forcing us to polarize our opinions and basically fall out with each other.
As a result I have tried to minimize posts on Rennlist on the grounds that we are both doing a great job for our customers and it may be better to concentrate on our work than arguing with each other. In any case it is often not important what the real cause was when identifying issues. Different specialists often can link a problem with the need to change something but for different technical reasons and as long as the change improves things it doesn’t really matter who is right or wrong as long as the change makes a difference.
Many global issues fall into this category – where it doesn’t really matter if the cause is global warming, carbon emissions, cutting down the rain forest or just a natural long term weather swing that will correct itself as long as we do something to minimize the consequences. As the medical professional said – we often don’t really understand a cause but as long as what we do improves things and we keep seeking answers – that is often the best we can do.
There are also differences between our continents. Fuel may well be an issue over there but not over here, ambient temperatures may vary, typical driving conditions may be different (we have a lot of congested roads but higher overall speed limits), we may drive shorter distances more often (same overall mileages but more or less heat cool cycles) and we may even on average have different driving styles (often very aggressive driving over here especially with 3rd or 4th owners trying to prove a point with the performance of their car). There is also good practice when rebuilding an engine that has nothing to do with bore scoring – we would both still recommend new shells, chains, head overhauls etc. Then there are things in the original design that I think we both regard as poor engineering automotive practice but we can do nothing about anyway.
We originally didn't like a ceramic IMS bearing but did state that a solid oil pressure fed bearing would be a good solution and bought one from LN that worked fine. However we never get to fit IMS bearings in situ these days and as we rebuild 4 or 5 engines/week we manufactured new end gears for original IM Shafts to house the larger bearing (fitted to the later cars) and made them for early roller chain and later HIVO chain shafts and now usually fit these in house. however you can see that we tried to introduce relationships between us then. So there are many reasons why we may rebuild engines with a different emphasis on issues but neither of us are doing anything wrong and our customers are getting great service. A problem does arise however when one of us makes a statement to try and inform the public and with good genuine intentions but without realizing that the other has similarly commented on the same issues but with conflicting explanations (or we are asked why our explanations are different).
The outcome implies that one is claiming to be right when the consequence is to imply that the other is wrong. The public see it as “they cannot both be right” and can easily set up conflict that neither of us seek but which they enjoy and to no one’s benefit. Our attempts to inform owners could become a battle of wills that neither of us seek but that differences of opinion stated publicly can generate. I agree entirely with your view on videos and agree that you have been well ahead of the game and that we are well behind. I also agree that there are a diminishing number of people that understand anything at all about engines and that we have all gone off reading when we can lazily sit and watch a video.
We have made a couple (on our Hartech automotive UK web site showing what we do and a fast frame full rebuild from driving in here to driving out again) and I agree they are extremely time consuming and the only way to afford to do it a lot would be to set up your own studio – as you have done – great respect for all that you contribute and well done. Until now we have restricted out technical explanations to our buyers guide (on our web site) with words and photos but I do agree that is now well out of date and we probably need to go with the times and do something similar to yourself. So yes - I think we will have to copy that - so we are in tune with public preferences when we try and convey information - but will always be happy to acknowledge your lead in the Porsche World in technical explanatory Video production – no problem there.
The difficulty I forsee however is what to do about explaining the contradictory causes of a specific subject that pretty well everyone Worldwide is aware of – like bore scoring - (but is not generally competent to judge). I can see it leading to unnecessary conflict between us that will only confuse owners and not help them (and which many will enjoy). As a result I have tried hard not to be adamant or gladiatorial in my contributions but always try relate my opinions to our experiences but in regard to bore scoring it has not helped and has clearly left the public confused – which is the opposite outcome to that we both intended. Although we change lots of things when we rebuild an engine, on the rare occasion that our customer will not approve everything we recommend (and although that will almost certainly shorten the eventual lifespan of the engine because they didn’t have new valve stems, a de-coke, new chains etc), never the less as long as we change the cylinder to our Nikasil ones – they will not experience any further bore scoring.
As a result it is difficult not to comment when lots of owners seek explanations about the causes of bore scoring and they all differ. So – over here (for whatever reasons) despite the fact that we do impose minimum standards in our rebuilds (or we will refuse to rebuild it) if all we did was to change the cylinders for Nikasil (and obviously replace a scored piston) the engine would not experience bore scoring again. It might not last that long for other reasons, might have to be rebuilt again for some other failure eventually but bore scoring would not return. From this I can only conclude that bore scoring is caused by Lokasil running with plastic coated pistons – and as any coating on a piston (or none at all) will run with Nikasil - get rid of the Lokasil – job done. But replacing Lokasil with something else is what we both do – so we both solve the prime cause with the same solution but perhaps in slightly different ways (which is totally acceptable) and as a result does it really matter if we disagree on some other technical issues that might or might not contribute to it?.
Because we both solve the problem (as I understand it you also fit Nikasil alloy replacement liners) and because we think this is the primary solution – it seems a shame if the outcome is for us to be publicly arguing about it all when we both are doing the right thing in a slightly different way to solve it and in so doing are providing great service to our customers. We do not use iron liners for reasons well explained over many years but we do concede that for racing – although we rate Nikasil alloy liners as superior – we acknowledge that iron liners correctly fitted can work well enough (as clearances are only needed for racing and running noises and oil consumption are not an issue) – we just prefer to do a technically better job with Nikasil and alloy. We also may differ in the precise way we fit the Nikasil liners but ours work perfectly (and I assume yours do to) so does it really matter if there are minor differences in how we do it?
So to avoid public conflict on this subject I am going to send you a private E-mail explaining why I disagree with some other issues you claim in your video to be contributory factors. I will also provide you with our pictures and measuring evidence of our Gen 2 bore seizures and our solutions. I look forward to it if you decide to reciprocate. It takes a lot of guts, confidence, time, money and testing to work out what a highly regarded manufacturer like Porsche could have done better and it takes a lot of commercial and production investment to set up a viable solution especially with the relatively limited financial resources we have at our disposal.
Furthermore we have learned that listening to others can just be a complete waste of time and I guess we have as a result become insular in our analysis and solutions. It would only be someone with great personal confidence in their understanding that would attempt and succeed in such a task and when faced with a public that know almost nothing about the subject (but often think they know more than we do) – it is easy to become insulated from listening to anyone else's opinion – but we can always learn and must try never to stick to our position when a better explanation emerges and try to always seek the truth rather than simply prop up our stance. Our experiences may tend to make us inflexible but I am still willing to try and find common ground privately.
I don’t know if this is the right thing to do or the right way to handle the technical differences we have and I await your response with interest.
All the best over there Jake,
Baz
The following 2 users liked this post by bazhart:
997ajk (09-02-2020),
pascalemod (04-04-2021)
02-20-2019, 09:24 AM
#19
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Baz... Jake..... we understand how you can get concerned about negative posts.... but taking those too seriously is like watching Rachel Maddow/Sean Hannity and thinking the sky is falling and the earth will end today. Most of us here are not stupid and get it. I am learning a ton from all of you, and at a bare minimum, is great reading entertainment. Keep it coming!
OK, now I am going to offend some folks! I used to hang with Ferrari folks.... all they did was talk about the leather. I asked a sales rep at a Ferrari dealership what the fins on the back underside of one of their models did.... he said "Aero package!" ... I asked: "Yes, but does it relieve back pressure or produce down force?" He said " Umm... I don't know and walked away from me". My point here is that owning a Porsche has collateral experiences that I thoroughly enjoy and you guys are part of the fun and valuable education. Keep it coming!!
Peace
Bruce in Philly
OK, now I am going to offend some folks! I used to hang with Ferrari folks.... all they did was talk about the leather. I asked a sales rep at a Ferrari dealership what the fins on the back underside of one of their models did.... he said "Aero package!" ... I asked: "Yes, but does it relieve back pressure or produce down force?" He said " Umm... I don't know and walked away from me". My point here is that owning a Porsche has collateral experiences that I thoroughly enjoy and you guys are part of the fun and valuable education. Keep it coming!!
Peace
Bruce in Philly
02-20-2019, 09:28 AM
#20
Originally Posted by Bruce In Philly
Baz... Jake..... we understand how you can get concerned about negative posts.... but taking those too seriously is like watching Rachel Maddow/Sean Hannity and thinking the sky is falling and the earth will end today. Most of us here are not stupid and get it. I am learning a ton from all of you, and at a bare minimum, is great reading entertainment. Keep it coming!
OK, now I am going to offend some folks! I used to hang with Ferrari folks.... all they did was talk about the leather. I asked a sales rep at a Ferrari dealership what the fins on the back underside of one of their models did.... he said "Aero package!" ... I asked: "Yes, but does it relieve back pressure or produce down force?" He said " Umm... I don't know and walked away from me". My point here is that owning a Porsche has collateral experiences that I thoroughly enjoy and you guys are part of the fun. Keep it coming!!
Peace
Bruce in Philly
OK, now I am going to offend some folks! I used to hang with Ferrari folks.... all they did was talk about the leather. I asked a sales rep at a Ferrari dealership what the fins on the back underside of one of their models did.... he said "Aero package!" ... I asked: "Yes, but does it relieve back pressure or produce down force?" He said " Umm... I don't know and walked away from me". My point here is that owning a Porsche has collateral experiences that I thoroughly enjoy and you guys are part of the fun. Keep it coming!!
Peace
Bruce in Philly
100%
02-20-2019, 10:20 AM
#21
Bruce, I am not personally bothered what anyone says about me (I know what I am capable of and all my short comings and would not be concerned about personal attacks) - but I do uphold our businesses competence and defend it against negative comments (and rightly so). The problem as I see it is that if one of us has actually got something wrong it impacts on customers and they might be Jake's or mine or more to the point we both might be right but the public think one of us is not. Far better if we find common ground and find solutions we both agree apply - in my view.
If the 2 leading suppliers of engine repair solutions through our disagreements manage to persuade some potential customers that something we propose is wrong we end up having to justify all sorts of things to them when we believe we are right anyway - it can be better not to cover contentious subjects in the first place sometimes even though it is at the expense of public knowledge.
I have sent Jake what I promised I would and I await his response with interest although I am happy if that is private and not public. We both have enough problems dealing with disaffected Porsche customers and developing the solutions we provide for new and emerging problems and personally I could do without the hassle of having to justify what we do if it conflicts with someone else.
I think the main thing is that what we provide works very well over here and I believe that LN and Jakes provisions are similarly regarded over there - so if we have technical differences it doesn't really matter as along as our customers are happy with what we do for them.
From an engineers point of view I would welcome someone I respect - to bounce ideas off - but not if it becomes misinterpreted or leads to more time being spent on it than it deserves.
Baz
If the 2 leading suppliers of engine repair solutions through our disagreements manage to persuade some potential customers that something we propose is wrong we end up having to justify all sorts of things to them when we believe we are right anyway - it can be better not to cover contentious subjects in the first place sometimes even though it is at the expense of public knowledge.
I have sent Jake what I promised I would and I await his response with interest although I am happy if that is private and not public. We both have enough problems dealing with disaffected Porsche customers and developing the solutions we provide for new and emerging problems and personally I could do without the hassle of having to justify what we do if it conflicts with someone else.
I think the main thing is that what we provide works very well over here and I believe that LN and Jakes provisions are similarly regarded over there - so if we have technical differences it doesn't really matter as along as our customers are happy with what we do for them.
From an engineers point of view I would welcome someone I respect - to bounce ideas off - but not if it becomes misinterpreted or leads to more time being spent on it than it deserves.
Baz
02-20-2019, 11:31 AM
#23
Burning Brakes
I am getting the impression from what Jake and Baz post that they are both right, just looking at things from a different perspective. I wish had known what these guys are teaching me BEFORE I bought a Porsche.
02-20-2019, 12:42 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
02-20-2019, 12:48 PM
#26
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Are you implying that you would not have purchased this car? What brand is better ... that does not have a percentage of serious failures? Regarding the M96.97 (1st gen water cooled), its problems are all over the 'net without Jake and Baz's commentary.. heck Porsche lost a class action suite.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
02-20-2019, 12:54 PM
#28
Former Vendor
We are both constantly asked about things, and our answers are put under a microscope. People then try to read both of these sets of answers, and if they don’t see perfect alignment, then they think that someone has to be “wrong”.
At the end of the day thee’s nothing shared between the environment that Baz and l operate our businesses in. The environment, the fuel, the speed limits, and even the sides of the car, and the sides of the road we drive on is different. About the only constant is the engine is fitted to the car the same way. The rest is all a bunch of variables.
This is what happens when we share a few pieces of what we know. For 18 months l took a break, and didn’t share anything. No posts, no videos and no technical newsletters. Honestly those were the best 18 months l have had in years.
Not really sure why l decided to start sharing again, but it seems that people are at least a little bit more appreciative, and less argumentative with what we share than they used to be.
02-20-2019, 12:56 PM
#29
Originally Posted by Flat6 Innovations
Its never about being right, or wrong.
We are both constantly asked about things, and our answers are put under a microscope. People then try to read both of these sets of answers, and if they don’t see perfect alignment, then they think that someone has to be “wrong”.
At the end of the day thee’s nothing shared between the environment that Baz and l operate our businesses in. The environment, the fuel, the speed limits, and even the sides of the car, and the sides of the road we drive on is different. About the only constant is the engine is fitted to the car the same way. The rest is all a bunch of variables.
This is what happens when we share a few pieces of what we know. For 18 months l took a break, and didn’t share anything. No posts, no videos and no technical newsletters. Honestly those were the best 18 months l have had in years.
Not really sure why l decided to start sharing again, but it seems that people are at least a little bit more appreciative, and less argumentative with what we share than they used to be.
We are both constantly asked about things, and our answers are put under a microscope. People then try to read both of these sets of answers, and if they don’t see perfect alignment, then they think that someone has to be “wrong”.
At the end of the day thee’s nothing shared between the environment that Baz and l operate our businesses in. The environment, the fuel, the speed limits, and even the sides of the car, and the sides of the road we drive on is different. About the only constant is the engine is fitted to the car the same way. The rest is all a bunch of variables.
This is what happens when we share a few pieces of what we know. For 18 months l took a break, and didn’t share anything. No posts, no videos and no technical newsletters. Honestly those were the best 18 months l have had in years.
Not really sure why l decided to start sharing again, but it seems that people are at least a little bit more appreciative, and less argumentative with what we share than they used to be.
Cw
02-20-2019, 01:15 PM
#30
Intermediate
Its never about being right, or wrong.
We are both constantly asked about things, and our answers are put under a microscope. People then try to read both of these sets of answers, and if they don’t see perfect alignment, then they think that someone has to be “wrong”.
At the end of the day thee’s nothing shared between the environment that Baz and l operate our businesses in. The environment, the fuel, the speed limits, and even the sides of the car, and the sides of the road we drive on is different. About the only constant is the engine is fitted to the car the same way. The rest is all a bunch of variables.
This is what happens when we share a few pieces of what we know. For 18 months l took a break, and didn’t share anything. No posts, no videos and no technical newsletters. Honestly those were the best 18 months l have had in years.
Not really sure why l decided to start sharing again, but it seems that people are at least a little bit more appreciative, and less argumentative with what we share than they used to be.