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NEW BUYER? SPECS/THOUGHTS/PLANS

Old 01-12-2019, 02:25 AM
  #16  
Petza914
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Originally Posted by FLYING BONES View Post


The car i am looking at does have PCCB

it say P01 adaptive sport seats.
Yes, Yes, Yes.

If you'd like to PM the link (don't post it here), I'll look over the photos and info to see what else I see. Don't worry, I'm not in the market for another one, nor do I have the space, as two are already stacked up for the winder and my DD is relegated to the outside driveway
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Old 01-12-2019, 02:30 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by Es macht nichts View Post
I have read that one should not worry about the IMS problem with 997s that are year 2007 or newer. Is that still the general consensus? I ask because obviously this includes later-year 997.1's.
Up to 2008. If you look at these year model list, look like 997.1 and 997.2 build in 2008. http://howtoporsche.com/911-series/9...r-and-version/
My search only found 997.1 with low number of IMS issue not wide spread as one think. The consensus is why take chances, just replace it. Here is a good place i find it useful. https://www.pca.org/news/2017-11-21/...ring-explained
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Old 01-12-2019, 02:52 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by rmstar View Post
Up to 2008. If you look at these year model list, look like 997.1 and 997.2 build in 2008. http://howtoporsche.com/911-series/9...r-and-version/
My search only found 997.1 with low number of IMS issue not wide spread as one think. The consensus is why take chances, just replace it. Here is a good place i find it useful. https://www.pca.org/news/2017-11-21/...ring-explained

For 997s, NON TURBO AND NON-GT CARS from 2005 to 2008 cars - called the 997.1 generation have a sealed IMS bearing, as do the water cooled M96 motors of the 996 (and 986) before it. Early '05 cars used a smaller diameter bearing that can actually be replaced by removing the transmission, the RMS and the bearing flange. This is where products like The IMS Solution come into play, essentially replacing the small diameter sealed ball bearing with an oiled bearing like the Turbo & GT cars have. Mid year 2005, Porsche went to a larger bearing. The good news is that it has proven to have a significantly lower failure rate (estimated at around 1%) - the bad news is that it cannot be replaced without splitting the engine case like the early 05 build cars, so the failure rate is quite low, but you also can't do anything to prevent or replace prior to failure, with the exception of pulling the outer grease seal so that the bearing gets splash lubrication from fresh oil, which is all it needs. Please don't mill the case with some sort of jig to try and get the larger bearing out for replacement without splitting the case (believe it or not, there is a company that offers this "service" as a good idea).

The problem with the bearing design is that it's a sealed bearing and the engine oil works its way past the seal and washes out the grease that is supposed to lubricate a sealed bearing. Once the grease is gone, there is not enough fresh oil available (because of the seal) to properly lubricate the ball bearing so friction and heat build up and the bearing fails, taking out the motor. The other problem with the design is the bearing is of the design where the center race was supposed to remain stationary and the outer race was supposed to rotate. In the IMS application, the bearing is being utilized for inner race rotation where the outer race is fixed and the inner race is the one spinning. In this application, at sustained high RPM usage, you can exceed the surface speed that the bearing was designed for, which contributes to the failure.

The 997.2 generation with the DFI motor and elimination of the IMS bearing began in MY 2009 and you don't have IMS issues to worry about with the 997.2.

For 997.1 cars - again, non-turbo and non-GT, here's the information on bearing sizes as they relate to engine serial #s, according to Porsche, but there have been some inconsistencies observed in this info, especially for MY 2005 cars where engine #s after the cutover date (usually base 3.6L engines) have been found to have the smaller bearing, and engines before the cutover date (usually S 3.8L engines) have been found to have the larger bearing. With a 2005, the only way to truly know which bearing is in the motor is to pull the transmission and inspect the bearing flange.

Larger nut (left photo) = better, larger IMS bearing / Smaller nut (right photo) = worse, but replaceable IMS bearing




There are three different serial number types for the three engine variants in our cars - base model M96.05 3.6L engines, S-model M97.01 3.8L engines, and the X51 power kit M97.01S 3.8L engines. All three have slightly different engine serial number formats.

For S-model non-X51 M97.01 engines the serial number is of the format M97/0168YXXXXX. The last 8 digits matter and are the following format:
685XXXXX = M97 for MY05
686XXXXX = M97 for MY06
687XXXXX = M97 for MY07

So the first two digits are 68, followed by the year digit, followed by a five digit serial number. But the full serial is M97/0168YXXXXX.

For X51 engines I believe the format is M97/01S68YXXXXX (added 'S' between 01 and 68).

3.6L base engines have a similar format M96/0569YXXXXX (not positive on the 05, can someone check?).

With replacement engines there is an 'AT' in front of the final eight digits. So a S-model 3.8L factory replacement engine the format would look like M97/01AT68YXXXXX.

Here's the Serial # breakdown.
For 3.8L motors, up to M97/01 68509790 has the smaller IMS bearing and Engine number from M97/01 68509791 has the larger revised IMS.

For 3.6L motors, if the engine s/n is M96/05 69507476 and up it has the larger bearing.
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Old 01-12-2019, 04:33 AM
  #19  
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@Petza914 Thanks for taking your time to write up an excellent IMS article. Lots of useful facts and info that will be helpful for everyone here.
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Old 01-12-2019, 01:24 PM
  #20  
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For a $65-$70k budget I would get both a 997.1 S manual for the NA experience and a BMW M235 for boost addiction (MT or AUTO)...and then few years down the line trade in one or both for a Cayman S/GTS..manual to drive into the sunset..
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Old 01-12-2019, 01:47 PM
  #21  
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Flying Bones,that is a cool car with some neat features - those are the excellent full power adaptive seats, has the PCCBs, SC, a number of normally black painted body panels done in body color as an option by Porsche, and I like the 2 tone interior as well. Also looks to have a mechanical limited slip locking rear differential, which I think is not a standard feature on Turbos and very cool, vs just the traction control functionality that uses wheel braking (I could be wong and it's on all Turbos).

With the white exterior and black & grey interior, you have the whole monochrome spectrum covered It's a bit tough to tell in the photos, but look carefully at the front of the hood to bumper to fender gaps and make sure they're even and level. On the angle of the photos, I can't tell if the passenger side is a little larger than the driver's side or not. All the other body gaps look good.

On the PCCBs, you need to look very carefully at both sides of the rotors for any type of darker areas (delamination of the ceramic) and for any chips in the rotor edges, which happens when service people don't use the required dual guide pins for wheel removal, and just one one, then the wheel rotates and contacts the carbon rotor. Replacement PCCB Rotors are $4k-$5k each. If today is just a once over and test drive and you'll have a full PPI done if things look good, then the dealership should carefully inspect the PCCBs as part of that.

Good luck and let us know how today goes.

Pete
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Old 01-12-2019, 02:18 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Petza914 View Post
Flying Bones,that is a cool car with some neat features - those are the excellent full power adaptive seats, has the PCCBs, SC, a number of normally black painted body panels done in body color as an option by Porsche, and I like the 2 tone interior as well. Also looks to have a mechanical limited slip locking rear differential, which I think is not a standard feature on Turbos and very cool, vs just the traction control functionality that uses wheel braking (I could be wong and it's on all Turbos).

With the white exterior and black & grey interior, you have the whole monochrome spectrum covered It's a bit tough to tell in the photos, but look carefully at the front of the hood to bumper to fender gaps and make sure they're even and level. On the angle of the photos, I can't tell if the passenger side is a little larger than the driver's side or not. All the other body gaps look good.

On the PCCBs, you need to look very carefully at both sides of the rotors for any type of darker areas (delamination of the ceramic) and for any chips in the rotor edges, which happens when service people don't use the required dual guide pins for wheel removal, and just one one, then the wheel rotates and contacts the carbon rotor. Replacement PCCB Rotors are $4k-$5k each. If today is just a once over and test drive and you'll have a full PPI done if things look good, then the dealership should carefully inspect the PCCBs as part of that.

Good luck and let us know how today goes.

Pete
I really appreciate you taking the time to review the car. The owner who has had the car for a couple of years said that she went to great lengths to find that particular color with those Options. Cruising the ad’s across the US the price already seems to be very competitive. I am really looking forward to putting my eyes on it in an hour or so. I will report back with the findings, Thank you so much.
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Old 01-13-2019, 01:26 AM
  #23  
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I made it down to look at the car I intended to look at, as well as 2 others.

First
Third party dealer
07 911 Turbo 6MT, highly optioned. PCCB/Adaptive Seats/Trim/Two tone leather.
37k mi
Pros: low mileage, options.
Neutral: Accident recorded, front fender with pictures of very moderate damage. Doesn't seem like a big deal.
Cons: A couple bumps bruises in the body work/lip. Needs tires. Someone has painted the intercooler tube blue...which just makes me wonder about everything. Interior in decent shape, but a couple things, like the head unit look weathered, like it's been sitting outside for some time. Owner states it will "have overrevs" at DME check but could not say what ranges they would be in.
$71,500

Second
07 911 GT3
(not exactly what i'm looking for but i liked the fact that it was same the same year, at a Porsche dealer. I wanted to see what it looked like. It was mint.
55k mi
Pros: Clean Clean Clean. No overrevs. New water pump and expansion tank.
Cons: No turbo? haha. Its really hard to find anything wrong with this car. I don't love the GT3 wheels, or wing. Price seems extra high.
$82k

Third
Third party dealer
07 911 Turbo 6MT, highly optioned. PCCB/Two tone leather/OZ wheels
66k mi
Pros: Recent coolant pinning after incident/ new clutch/ new spoiler motor/super clean interior
Neutral: KW3 V3 Coil overs/ CSF Race Radiators/ Markski Tune. These could be positives.
Cons: Tuned. Clearly repainted and unmatching F&R bumpers which the owner acknowledges and said was due to scratches. Much higher mileage than the first.
$75k

None of these guys, even the porsche dealership, are in a hurry to sell. They all seem quite content with keeping the cars on the lot. Both of the 911 Turbo are the dealers personal vehicle. I don't feel like i have much bargaining on my side.

My gut: Not sure what to do...i love the 911 Turbo 6MT. What's not to love. But I'm confronted with the fact that $70k+ is a lot of money for me to spend on a 14 year old car, and they do feel like 14 year old cars. I want to DD this car so I need a good starting block. I looked at some Carreras, and I can say it's not for me, if that Carrera breaks down, i'm not going to want to wrench on it or spend the money on it. I think I want a Turbo, or possibly a GT3 for the right price. If I have to settle for something else, i'll just keep DD my Civic or WRX. The truth is I dreamed about what it would be like to drive one of those cars on the way home...3.5 hours...lots of time to dream. I can see myself in this car for a long time.

Really would like to hear what you all have to say about the cars and prices.
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Old 01-13-2019, 01:55 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by FLYING BONES View Post


I really appreciate you taking the time to review the car. The owner who has had the car for a couple of years said that she went to great lengths to find that particular color with those Options. Cruising the ad’s across the US the price already seems to be very competitive. I am really looking forward to putting my eyes on it in an hour or so. I will report back with the findings, Thank you so much.
Though both the 997TT and the GT3 are 997s, they're actually very different cars and they drive very differently from each other also. Did you drive the GT3? I'm not sure you'll be happy with DDing a GT3 over the long haul as it's a very stiff ride, noisier (less sound deadening material, thinner glass, etc) or maybe that's exactly what you're after. The TT is a more comfortable GT type car with the AWD smoother ride (not sure if the KW equipped one would still be).

GT3
  • Wonderful NA high revving engine (not much tunability left)
  • NB car
  • RWD only
  • a streetable track weapon
  • linear power delivery and really sings in the higher RPMs with a phenomenal exhaust note
  • no usable rear seat (no belts) if that matters to you for any reason
  • usually alcantara on the seats and sometimes in other areas (shifter, wheel, etc). Personally, I do not like alcantara except on the headliner and much prefer leather, especially on the seats so I don't stick to them and can squirm around to adjust my position on longer trips.

TT
Forced Induction motor with lots of tuning and upgrade options available if so inclined
WB car
AWD
a trackable street weapon
exhaust note isn't great as it's squelched by the turbos and not much can be done to improve it
turbo power delivery - not a lot of lag and then the whoosh you love that just keeps pulling

If both the GT3 and the 2nd 997 have the red brakes and the regular seats (GT3 seats should be the manual version of the sport seats with the alcantara centers), then the first TT has about $12,000 in upgrades over the other 2 (PCCBs are $8,000-$10,000 and the full power adaptive sport seats are $3,500-$4,500)

The price on the GT3 is right in line with the market if not a couple thousand low, depending on condition & options.

Overrevs in ranges 1 & 2, and maybe 3 if 50 or more hours ago are fine. Anything higher and more recent, I'd walk from.

Any coolant pipe repair history on the first female owned TT? Why are the the intercooler pipes blue - are the upgraded anodized pieces from someone like FVD or were they just painted blue. What was the female owner like as you're buying the owner as much as you're buying the car. Was she a dancer/stripper that knows nothing about cars or an enthusiast owner who grew up around sportscars and was a good steward of the car when she owned it (think Marisa Tomei in My Cousin Vinney). Any other mods on that car (intake, exhaust, etc) that help explain the intercooler pipes.
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Old 01-13-2019, 02:26 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by rmstar View Post
Up to 2008. If you look at these year model list, look like 997.1 and 997.2 build in 2008. http://howtoporsche.com/911-series/9...r-and-version/
My search only found 997.1 with low number of IMS issue not wide spread as one think. The consensus is why take chances, just replace it. Here is a good place i find it useful. https://www.pca.org/news/2017-11-21/...ring-explained
Thank you.
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Old 01-13-2019, 03:37 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Petza914 View Post
Though both the 997TT and the GT3 are 997s, they're actually very different cars and they drive very differently from each other also. Did you drive the GT3? I'm not sure you'll be happy with DDing a GT3 over the long haul as it's a very stiff ride, noisier (less sound deadening material, thinner glass, etc) or maybe that's exactly what you're after. The TT is a more comfortable GT type car with the AWD smoother ride
I am second with Petza on his view. In addition GT3 can draw the crowd vs TT blend in.
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Old 01-13-2019, 04:41 AM
  #27  
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Pete....as always, amazing depth of info and I may have missed what I'll be asking for reading through all of it. Not currently in the market for a TT but just curious. Is there a way to check the condition of the coolant pipes during the PPI without tearing all sorts of things apart?
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Old 01-13-2019, 10:39 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by sandwedge View Post
Pete....as always, amazing depth of info and I may have missed what I'll be asking for reading through all of it. Not currently in the market for a TT but just curious. Is there a way to check the condition of the coolant pipes during the PPI without tearing all sorts of things apart?
Sandwedge, thanks and I actually don't know about that, but it seems like people have talked about seeing weeping and deciding to fix them before failure so I'm thinking there is.
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Old 01-13-2019, 11:53 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Petza914 View Post
Though both the 997TT and the GT3 are 997s, they're actually very different cars and they drive very differently from each other also. Did you drive the GT3? I'm not sure you'll be happy with DDing a GT3 over the long haul as it's a very stiff ride, noisier (less sound deadening material, thinner glass, etc) or maybe that's exactly what you're after. The TT is a more comfortable GT type car with the AWD smoother ride (not sure if the KW equipped one would still be).

GT3
  • Wonderful NA high revving engine (not much tunability left)
  • NB car
  • RWD only
  • a streetable track weapon
  • linear power delivery and really sings in the higher RPMs with a phenomenal exhaust note
  • no usable rear seat (no belts) if that matters to you for any reason
  • usually alcantara on the seats and sometimes in other areas (shifter, wheel, etc). Personally, I do not like alcantara except on the headliner and much prefer leather, especially on the seats so I don't stick to them and can squirm around to adjust my position on longer trips.

TT
Forced Induction motor with lots of tuning and upgrade options available if so inclined
WB car
AWD
a trackable street weapon
exhaust note isn't great as it's squelched by the turbos and not much can be done to improve it
turbo power delivery - not a lot of lag and then the whoosh you love that just keeps pulling

If both the GT3 and the 2nd 997 have the red brakes and the regular seats (GT3 seats should be the manual version of the sport seats with the alcantara centers), then the first TT has about $12,000 in upgrades over the other 2 (PCCBs are $8,000-$10,000 and the full power adaptive sport seats are $3,500-$4,500)

The price on the GT3 is right in line with the market if not a couple thousand low, depending on condition & options.

Overrevs in ranges 1 & 2, and maybe 3 if 50 or more hours ago are fine. Anything higher and more recent, I'd walk from.

Any coolant pipe repair history on the first female owned TT? Why are the the intercooler pipes blue - are the upgraded anodized pieces from someone like FVD or were they just painted blue. What was the female owner like as you're buying the owner as much as you're buying the car. Was she a dancer/stripper that knows nothing about cars or an enthusiast owner who grew up around sportscars and was a good steward of the car when she owned it (think Marisa Tomei in My Cousin Vinney). Any other mods on that car (intake, exhaust, etc) that help explain the intercooler pipes.
I think I would be happy with a GT3, but I think a Turbo is more appropriate.

The 2 997's both have many options.
I did a little more homework and came up with these build sheets.
Both are male owned, personal vehicles of 3rd party auto dealers.



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Old 01-13-2019, 02:12 PM
  #30  
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The best deals are on the 2009 TT cab models with Tip. That particular combination seems to be very undesirable because all the 2009 non TT models got the DFI engine and PDK as an option. I got a chance to check out 3 of these before I bought my C2S. They were all in excellent shape and drove great! I got the impression people bought this model for the image and maybe weekend cruises. I wasn't real fond of the transmission, but I could live with it for asking prices. Unfortunately, the cheapest of the 3 was still beyond my budget.
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