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Jake or Baz, I'm sure you guys know this, but was wondering if the 9A1 motors have engine manufacturing series numbers like my Cayenne does that's visible on the build sticker. For example, my 2009 is a 9PA AN1 which we believe is one after the honing process was changed or a certain subcontractor was eliminated, which is why we're not seeing very many 2009 and 2010 Cayenne motor scoring failures, like we are on the 2008s even though all are the DFI motors. If you and Baz have this information on the 9A1 engines for those you've seen scoring or other failures on, and those correlate to certain engine production series, we may be able to start an analysis of which have a higher likelihood of failing than others.
I'm due for an oil change. Unless I tell my dealer otherwise they will refill with Mobil 1. If my car was your car (2011 997 GTS), what oil would you put in the car after the old Mobil 1 was drained?
just wanted to bump this question above - I am also wondering the same thing.
if the Driven Oils are recommended - which one is ideal for the 9A1 (e.g., DT40 or DI40)? It sounds like DI40 is specifically designed to mitigate LSPI:
Driven's DI Synthetic Engine Oil is designed specifically for Direct Fuel Injection Engines. The DI oil delivers cutting-edge lubricant technology specifically developed for direct injection engines. The DI oil utilizes an advanced additive package designed to reduce abnormal combustion, such as low speed pre-ignition issues, and protects against soot related wear. A lower volatility base oil also reduces crankcase vapors and carbon buildup on intake valves.
just wanted to bump this question above - I am also wondering the same thing.
if the Driven Oils are recommended - which one is ideal for the 9A1 (e.g., DT40 or DI40)? It sounds like DI40 is specifically designed to mitigate LSPI:
Driven's DI Synthetic Engine Oil is designed specifically for Direct Fuel Injection Engines. The DI oil delivers cutting-edge lubricant technology specifically developed for direct injection engines. The DI oil utilizes an advanced additive package designed to reduce abnormal combustion, such as low speed pre-ignition issues, and protects against soot related wear. A lower volatility base oil also reduces crankcase vapors and carbon buildup on intake valves.
I had this conversation with Lake Speed yesterday and for the 9A1 or other Porsche DFI motors, like my Cayenne, the DI line of oils is his recommendation as it has a higher HTHS (High Temperature High Shear) rating than the DT line. For the DT40 and DI40 weight oils, DT40 has an HTHS of 3.9 compared to DI40's 4.2. He recommended I stay with the DT40 for my 997.1 motors though.
When switching to Driven oils from something else though, Jake recommends a flush with Driven BR30 oil for 100 miles or so. This is to prevent incompatible additive packages between the M1 oil and Driven oil from improperly reacting with each other. When I switched my 997s over to DT40, I followed his advice. It costs you an extra oil and filter change but to avoid an incompatibility issue was worth it to me. If paying a dealer though, that's going to be a more expensive step.
Edit - For anyone already running DT40 but thinking about the change to DI40 for their 997.2 or other DFI motor, I had another exchange with Lake this morning asking if switching from DT40 to DI40 would require another BR flush cycle and he said it would not.
Petza - What weight DT40/BR30 do you recommend for the 997.1?
The letters (DT) are the series and the number is the weight / grade. DT40 is a 5W/40 and DI40 is a 0W/40, but according to Lake just barely below what would classify it as a 5W/40, so nothing given up to the thinner cold viscosity rating. Those are the right products for the 997s.
Jake had recommended BR30 for the short 100 mile flush but I'm not sure if BR40 would also be OK (maybe in the summer). The BR30 is a 5W/30 and the BR40 a 10W/40 so it might be for the lower cold viscosity rating for better start up flow that he recommended the BR30 be used.
The oil recommendation is easy. Its this simple:
-ONLY use the DI40 if your engine is a 997.2, or has direct injection
-Use DT40 for all other M9X, 997.1 engines.
-l do not step down to a 30 grade oil until someone is operating in the deep north and its the middle of winter, then l have them change to a 40 grade as soon as spring comes.
All of us here have been thinking a lot about the failure that Bronz has seen. One of my employees brought up a very good point concerning the factiry engine machining, and now that has spiraled into something that makes a ton of sense. Now we just have to work to back up these results, and gather data to support this. That doesn’t happen overnight.
Catching this failure, at the stage it was at may have helped us unlock a door to the future. Only time will tell. This is a characteristic of only bank 1 of this engine, and more specifically cylinder #1.
l will add that any of these failures are very rare, and to date the 9a1 has been light years ahead of where the M96 engine was in it’s first decade of practical use. By this point with the M96 l had already noted 20 modes of failure, and our line for engine build was out the door, and around the building. Today the 9a1 still only comprises 1/3 of our work load here. These engines have proven to be very robust.
A big Thank You to Jake, Baz, Pete, and everyone else whose input has helped move this conversation along.
It looks like factory annealing of the castings, generally performed in a computer controlled oven (this process used to involve setting the castings outside to rust for a year before machining), may have been off, but perhaps only for some (or one) motor lot. It seems that may be just luck of the draw. It would be interesting, as Pete suggested, to see if this "motor lot" data can be extracted.
So perhaps on the 9A1 cold climate is or is not a (mitigating) factor?
If the annealing was off, could this affect the rebuild, or have stresses been fully relieved and / or the rebuild will compensate?
Or is this a side affect of the closed deck design?
It also looks like it may be time to abandon those unopened jugs of M1 and go to a BR40 100 mile oil change (flush) on the way to using DI40.
Thanks again. I look forward to where this leads as more data is known.
What do you think Wayne? With our higher mileage cars (+100K)... 10 years on now..... wouldn't the heat cycling and ambient changes fully caused the metal to have relaxed by now? Said another way, "when can I stop worrying!".
A big Thank You to Jake, Baz, Pete, and everyone else whose input has helped move this conversation along.
It looks like factory annealing of the castings, generally performed in a computer controlled oven (this process used to involve setting the castings outside to rust for a year before machining), may have been off, but perhaps only for some (or one) motor lot. It seems that may be just luck of the draw. It would be interesting, as Pete suggested, to see if this "motor lot" data can be extracted.
So perhaps on the 9A1 cold climate is or is not a (mitigating) factor?
If the annealing was off, could this affect the rebuild, or have stresses been fully relieved and / or the rebuild will compensate?
Or is this a side affect of the closed deck design?
It also looks like it may be time to abandon those unopened jugs of M1 and go to a BR40 100 mile oil change (flush) on the way to using DI40.
Thanks again. I look forward to where this leads as more data is known.
At this point annealing isn’t a concern from my perspective. When machining original cylinders away different hardnesses are evident in the size, shape and color of the machined chips, if the hardness varies. When machining these blocks this is not something that he been noted.
I do believe that a destructive evaluation is warranted though. This would tell us a lot, but wasting a crankcase to do it knocks a dent in the annual R&D budget.
We perform atress relieving by utikizing a thermal cycling process that includes both cryogenics, as well as heat in a continuous cycle that takes more than 24 hours to perform.
We do keep a log of failures and engine designations. It takes years to gather trend data, though.
I would think that those main bearings would become a concern with high mileage. Something else... bronz never said where the car came from. If it was a cold climate car it's entire life, or only for the the last year, may have some significance.
I would think that those main bearings would become a concern with high mileage. Something else... bronz never said where the car came from. If it was a cold climate car it's entire life, or only for the the last year, may have some significance.
The worn bearings are connecting rod bearings, not main bearings. The main bearings in this particular engine were in great condition, with no visible wear at all.
I would think that those main bearings would become a concern with high mileage. Something else... bronz never said where the car came from. If it was a cold climate car it's entire life, or only for the the last year, may have some significance.
Car spent its entire life in warm climate. Florida and Texas. It had only been in Illinois 1year and 2months. Heres the carfax from when i bought the car.
The worn bearings are connecting rod bearings, not main bearings. The main bearings in this particular engine were in great condition, with no visible wear at all.
Sorry. My bad. I'm old, I forget all kinds of stuff!
02-12-2019, 07:40 AM
