raidersfan

I know this is a bit off the wall, but a recent thread on here piqued my interest (997 GTS traded for Targa 4S). What would it cost one to own a 997.1 (say a well-kept manual with 50,000 miles) vs a slightly used 991.2 (say 15,000 miles), over, say 4 years-40,000 miles? Depreciation? Insurance? Maintenance? Are these 2 as far apart as I think they will be?

Depreciation for 997.1: maybe $2k a year? It seems like they are about 4 grand cheaper than when I was shopping for a 997.1 or 997.2 back in the spring of 2016. 997.2 models haven't lost value, only the 997.1 seems to be creeping lower.
Depreciation for 991.2: $6k a year on a used model? Eduardo sold his a year and 10k miles later for $7,500 less. These seem to lose around $30-35k in the first 2 years; if they follow 991.1 depreciation patterns, they will probably see between $4-7k depreciation per year going forward.

Insurance: my 997.2 costs $82 a month. I can't imagine the 997.1 is much different. $984/year
Insurance on the 991.2: $125 a month is the rate I have seen posted here: $1500/year

Money tied up in the car: 5% on your money, for an extra $55k over 4 years, so $15,000.

Maintenance: 997.1: what are the main maintenance items at 10+ years? RMS? Anything else that goes out due to age? Clutch is more of a wear item, as are tires. Tires are about $900 for a set of 4. Maybe $1500/year on fixing things if the car is being driven?
Maintenance 991.2: under warranty, so no maintenance needed for awhile. Tires costs more. Services are likely comparable. Figure $300/year more on tires, but nothing for broken items.

What else am I missing? Are these estimates accurate?

Very rough calculation is $3300 more/year for a newish 991.2 C2S, or $7,000 or so including the value of having money tied up in the more expensive car. Does this sound about right?

If that is so, the 997.1 seems like a close winner or the clear winner. After 4 years, the owner will have paid for 1/3 of the car in savings. Still, the 991.2 seems cheap to own, compared with a similar Mercedes, BMW, or Range Rover. Am I missing something?

Spyerx

raidersfan

Thank you for your insightful comment!

I own a Toyota Tacoma, if that tells you anything. I sold my last Tacoma for $500 more than I paid, 30,000 miles later.

cwheeler

Spyerx

raidersfan

$45 a month on a $50k car? Wow. Given that they want to make some money, they have calculated that you will drive it 1440 months before totaling it (120 years) or 24 years before getting into a $10,000 fender-bender? Insurance companies operate with asymmetric information, sure, but it certainly seems like an optimistic assumption.

TheBruce

I personally think the 997.1 is the cheapest sports car on the planet. I did the math before I bought mine and figured it had a lower cost of ownership than buying a Honda Accord.

My rough estimates on the 997.1 as follows:

• Price: <50k mile C2S for $42-46k, or C2 for $36-39k
• Depreciation: I would estimate $0 over 2-3yrs. I put 25k miles on mine over 2yrs and can sell it for 10-15% more than I paid. Ive seen prices creep up on both 997.2 and 997.1s since I bought mine.
• Insurance: I pay $25/month with Geico
• Repairs: Huge difference if you are a DIY guy or bring to a dealer. I would have paid almost $10k in maintenance if I brought mine to the dealer. Instead Ive paid maybe $1500 in parts and $1000 in labor over 25k miles for a clutch job, new starter/alternator cable, new starter switch, new expansion tank, broken door latch, a gas cap and a few other little bits and pieces. Luckily I had newish brakes when I bought mine and the RMS already done. I would expect all 997.
• Regular Maintenance: $100 per oil change if your DIY, $150 at a indy.
• Tires: $1800 budget will get you 40k miles on PS4s (2 sets of rears, 1 set of fronts).
• Mods: that's going to be the kicker. You will likely spend more on the 997 vs 991.
• Gas: Thats my biggest expense at $50-60/wk. I get an avg of 17mpg. The 991.1 has probably 15% better gas mileage than the 997.1. The 991.2 has probably 20-25%.

raidersfan

Wow, that is great! I figured that 997.1 prices were still dropping, at least around here. There was a decently nice Atlas Grey C2S that a local guy traded in for $37k and sold for $42k. 18-months later, the same dealer sold it again for $37,500 with almost the same mileage. Those repair prices are pretty incredible! I think a clutch job with the guy that everyone goes to around here (who is also the least expensive in town) is $2200.

It sounds like a 997.1 is pretty darn cheap to operate. I know the 997.2 is (I have a C4S), but the 997.1 is probably the oldest "newer" 911 I would want to own. 996's don't interest me, and owning an air-cooled 993 isn't in the cards. But yeah, mods can be pricey. If I were to ever get the "right" 997.1, I would want to install Ohlins and stiffer swaybars, possibly drop links, get a front Aerokit bumper, and finish it off with a Getty Ducktail. Hello, $8,000 investment!

sandwedge

Confusing thread, at least to me. If I understand all you're saying correctly you currently own a 997.2 C4S and you're you're going through all these maintenance, insurance cost and depreciation figures between a 997.1 and a 991.2. Why you would even consider backtracking to a 997.1 from a 997.2 C4S I'll never know for a number of reasons. First off, if you can afford a 991.2, why would you give up your 997.2 C4S for a 997.1 and going back into the rare but still possible IMS failure with any 997.1 which basically turns the car into a $7,000 to $8,000 roller. So with that in mind, why does $125/month or $80/month in insurance cost even matter when you have to enter that possibility - no matter how rare and unlikely - into the equation? Sorry.....I can't make any sense out of this.

ipse dixit

Sure, but if you believe your numbers you're driving a 997.

I'd rather pay a bit more and drive the 991.

TheBruce

Yea you can find deals but its getting harder...and you need to move faster.

In my opinion, Eibachs ($350), a Fister exhaust ($450) and the LaPower bluetooth module are the must-have (and biggest bang for the buck) mods for all 997.1s

For the clutch, my indy would have charged $1700-1900 (if the flywheel didnt need to be replaced). However they are awesome and let me supply my own parts and use the lift one morning. Their lead mechanic walked me through each step and we had it done in 4.5hrs. They only charged me for the time.

The typical maintenance items on the 997.1:

- RMS, cheap to replace during clutch job. I believe fixed in the 2007+ MYs.
- Ignition switch. Easy DIY. Im not sure if this affected 997.2s as well.
- Expansion tank. Cheap part but you need to drop the engine down a few inches to get it out. Its not too bad if you had good instructions. I wrote up my steps. This affects both .1s and .2s.
- Starter+Alternator cable. This affects .1s I think up until the 2007 MY. Another cheap part but requires you remove the alternator, throttle body, plenum, AC compressor and bottom panels. Also not hard if you are handy.
- Air/Oil separator. Cheap part. Little tricky to replace but I think easier than the starter cable and expansion tank. Ive not had to replace mine yet.
- Soft-touch paint on the center console and AC buttons. This only affects the .1s but is likely the first thing any new owner will want to fix. Buttons are $150 and you can DIY the center console respray for $15 or buy a new one for $700.
- Gas cap. $40 part. I think this affects .2s as well. The seal goes bad with age.
- Door latch. $30 part I think. The latch brakes inside the door and the handle gets floppy. Required you pull the door panel off to fix. 2hr job.
- Frunk struts. $100 I think.
- Strut mounts. These can go around 60-80k miles leading to some knocking when you go over bumps. Not sure if these were improved on 997.2.


The car is stupid cheap and crazy fun. And for those who will inevitably talk about the 997.1 becoming a paperweight: if I bought a 991.1 2yrs ago and put the same miles on it, I likely would have lost more in depreciation than a 4.0 rebuild would ever cost me.

Chris M.

This (6% of RL users in the poll)...or scored bores (18% of .1 RL users in the poll). When I look at .1 cars I can't help but consider the possibility that it will need a $20K engine rebuild. If you're shopping and are OK with that then a .1 is an incredible car for the money...flame suit on. I would be looking at the .1s popping up now with rebuilt 4.0 engines already installed because as is usually the case, the price does not reflect the massive expense the owner invested for the rebuild. A 400hp .1 would be a hoot!

Fined

Any cost of ownership estimate for 997.1 should include an engine rebuild, whether it's happened yet or not. Pretty much throws all the estimates here out the window. Plus if you have money for a 991.2.. buying a 997.1 at this point doesn't make a lot of sense. If you had money for a 991.2.. you'd have money for 997.2 and 991.1 also.. so buying a 997.1 doesn't make sense.

The fact of 997.1 owners arguing it's not valid doesn't hold water. Any more than saying your PDK will never fail. It's a possibility, and should be factored in. I have a PDK car, and just because its unlikely, doesn't mean the possibility can just be ignored for the sake of argument.

C4SDayton

I do not get all your logic. I agree a buyer should factor in covering a major expense on everything they purchase, PDK issue, clutch, IMS, etc. I specifically sought out a 997.1 and passed on several 991.1s and 997.2s based on options, miles, color, etc. Cost was not an issue other than artificial one of <70-75k for what was to be an all weather DD. If I wanted a wider and longer car with 2 fans being the evidence I could see that an engine was in the back, I might have gotten a 991. Not much different than when I decided a 5000sq ft home and 6 bathrooms was enough when I could get 8000 sq ft and 8 bathrooms for 50% more for my family of 7.

Petza914

Unless there's a 100% chance of a .1 engine failing or needing a rebuild, you can't factor in a $20,000 expense into the analysis, that's not how probability and statistics works. With a 6% chance of failure (according to your poll numbers) you'd need to factor in $1,200 and if you find the right car early 05 with replaced IMS bearing early in its life, prior to an actual failure, or a mid 05 on that has the larger bearing, that is a warm climate car, with good service history, no range 3 or above overrevs, and a clear PPI (sump pull and boroscope) and then your odds of failure probably drop to 1%.

Or if you don't like that argument, take the $20,000 991 price difference and put it in an investment account. When the 991 depreciation would have equalled that $20,000 you would have already lost on depreciation of that car, see what the balance in that account is - now you're way ahead of the game unless your engine failed in those 3 years, in which case you broke even but also now have a better 997 with Nickies and a 4.0.

My wife's 05 C2S (large bearing car) is the lowest operating cost vehicle we've ever owned - lower than my GMC pick-up and lower than our Infiniti QX56 and she DD'd it from 40,000 miles in 2013 to the current 105,000 miles. Brakes, tires, and 1 waterpump is all it has needed, and probably a clutch in the next 10,000 miles as the pedal is getting stiffer and stiffer. I bet I could sell it within $2,500 of what I paid for it 5 years ago - find a 991 owner that can say that.